High Voltage Distribution
So right now the electrical system is a bit like the classic Sim City - power source, and what appear to be busways or cable trays around the facility. There is no real limitation to the distance of the circuit, or the number of things connected to the circuit.
Here's a different approach idea - you have a high voltage generator, but the generator itself cannot run the loads around the prison. What the player would do is run high voltage cable from the generator to a transformer, and from there you can send power out to a limited number of loads. (This could also be called a "unit substation" or "unit sub" where you have a step-down transformer and a bunch of panels you can send out power from in one package.) Also, the distance you could move the useful lower voltage electricity from the unit sub would be limited.
Shutdown for Work
Right now the workmen can install all kinds of electrical equipment while the generator is running. In the real world a lot of electrical equipment can be installed live, but it can be really dangerous. In this situation, the workmen would not install busways/cable tray unless the power feeding the section they are working on is switched off. That means turning off a switch or shutting down the whole generator for the prison.
This limitation would make the player plan the electrical system out more carefully, as changes or expansions could leave parts of the prison in the dark unless they were carefully planned.
Generator Damage
A generator running close to capacity has a random chance of tripping out. If the generator trips repeatedly without the load being reduced, it will eventually start an electrical fire and destroy the generator.
[SUGGESTION] Voltage Drop and other Electrical Ideas
Moderator: NBJeff
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ElectricGlow
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paktsardines
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Forever_Lona
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+1 here. I love the utilities system and think it could be a really good feature in time. I'd like to see the option of being able to add cut of switches ect aswell. That way you can fully build a new wing in preparation, but not worry about powering it until it was ready. This would be particuarly handy if a water and power usage cost was implemented!
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ElectricGlow
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(Full disclosure: I actually do large facilities-related electrical and control/automation work for a living. So getting both low and medium voltage (over 600V to about 14kV) power safely and efficiently from point A to point B is part of my bread and butter.)
I a real world system the generator block would be replaced with a MV/MV or MV/LV step-down transformer from the utility grid. Capacitors in the real world are connected to the power system, but they are there to provide reactive power with a leading power factor. Loads like large motors (refrigerators, large air conditioner compressors, fans) have a lagging power factor, so what happens is they pull current that they don't use to do actual work. It's wasted. The capacitor bank provides reactive power that corrects that. So on the big air conditioner instead of pulling 100Aac at 480Vac, it only pulls 80Aacat 480Vac to do the same amount of power.
Anyhow, a few other comments that might be more realistic to implement.
Utility Rooms
One of the things with the unit substation concept is that it would require utility rooms to isolate the equipment from the rest of the general prison. A prisoner with physical access might be able to sabotage the system. This could be done in various and creative ways that it would be best not to go into details into, but unrestricted physical access might result in being able to knock out power to a section of the prison (possibly injuring/killing the saboteur in the process).
Inrush Power
The system could account for inrush power. Basically, when loads like motors start, for a brief instant they require as much as 10x or more current as they normally do for a fraction of a second (up to ten or thirty seconds for the massive medium-voltage motors I work with). What this means is that if you knock the generator offline, you need to open switches (in the real world these are breakers) to isolate the different electrical systems in the prison, then you bring the prison back online section by section. You don't have to wait very long, but you can't just power up everything at once. If you don't, and you don't have enough caps, the generator won't have the capacity to bring the entire prison back up, and it will trip off. (Another real-world system I was working on with a generator that had 250kW of running capability, but only 300kW of starting capability. All the motor loads had to be brought on one at a time with at least a second between loads, in order from the biggest to the smallest.)
Fading Lights and Brownouts
It's a cool effect, but really the light fade-in/fade-out should be much quicker, and even when it's quicker that would be for "theatrical" effects. The generator should also drop in voltage as it gets closer to its maximum load, making the (incandescent) lights dim or flicker.
I a real world system the generator block would be replaced with a MV/MV or MV/LV step-down transformer from the utility grid. Capacitors in the real world are connected to the power system, but they are there to provide reactive power with a leading power factor. Loads like large motors (refrigerators, large air conditioner compressors, fans) have a lagging power factor, so what happens is they pull current that they don't use to do actual work. It's wasted. The capacitor bank provides reactive power that corrects that. So on the big air conditioner instead of pulling 100Aac at 480Vac, it only pulls 80Aacat 480Vac to do the same amount of power.
Anyhow, a few other comments that might be more realistic to implement.
Utility Rooms
One of the things with the unit substation concept is that it would require utility rooms to isolate the equipment from the rest of the general prison. A prisoner with physical access might be able to sabotage the system. This could be done in various and creative ways that it would be best not to go into details into, but unrestricted physical access might result in being able to knock out power to a section of the prison (possibly injuring/killing the saboteur in the process).
Inrush Power
The system could account for inrush power. Basically, when loads like motors start, for a brief instant they require as much as 10x or more current as they normally do for a fraction of a second (up to ten or thirty seconds for the massive medium-voltage motors I work with). What this means is that if you knock the generator offline, you need to open switches (in the real world these are breakers) to isolate the different electrical systems in the prison, then you bring the prison back online section by section. You don't have to wait very long, but you can't just power up everything at once. If you don't, and you don't have enough caps, the generator won't have the capacity to bring the entire prison back up, and it will trip off. (Another real-world system I was working on with a generator that had 250kW of running capability, but only 300kW of starting capability. All the motor loads had to be brought on one at a time with at least a second between loads, in order from the biggest to the smallest.)
Fading Lights and Brownouts
It's a cool effect, but really the light fade-in/fade-out should be much quicker, and even when it's quicker that would be for "theatrical" effects. The generator should also drop in voltage as it gets closer to its maximum load, making the (incandescent) lights dim or flicker.
Last edited by ElectricGlow on Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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ElectricGlow
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Hessen wrote:Should have an electricity bill too imo.
If you have an electricity bill, then you get into power metering and conservation. I've got a few ideas on that as well. Full disclosure part II: large facilities IRL can get charged very differently from a residential customer. However, for the sake of the game, it would probably be best not to recommend (despite coming from an Dwarf Fortress background) something like a power purchasing system or a system where you get billed on both energy (how much power you consume), power (sliding window of how many loads are on at the same time), and power factor (phase shift between voltage and current as seen by the power company). For a large facility you'd have an administrator whose full-time job would be to buy utilities like electricity, power, and gas.
Smart Meters (if we start getting billed for power)
The generator would have a displayable meter to show the following:
1. Current power usage and cost
2. Predicted power usage for billing period (based on current usage and past usage)
3. A little chart for the main meter, and the ability to show what the other meters for branch circuits are seeing
Each switch should also have a built-in meter that can be checked with the same data as the main facility meter.
Turn Off Default Lighting Installation
Please, please please please let us turn off the automatic installation of light fixtures! This is especially a pain in cellblocks where half the lights end up being inside walls and it creates a situation where the lighting is really uneven.
Different Light Types
Seeing the above point, please let us change the default light types and install different lights:
Florescent - more energy efficient, harsher light (large bank of tubes for hallway and room lighting)
Compact fluorescent - small and more secure, for things like lighting cells
Sodium - ugly but relatively energy efficient and powerful enough to light outdoor areas and large indoor areas - the current lights really don't work well outside
LED - replaces the incandescent (most countries are banning those anyways), good for night and emergency lights
Incandescent - for old people who don't understand electricity or how to save money
Timer Zone, Night/Emergency Lights, Daylight Switch
If we are being billed, I'd love to be able to select the lights in a cellblock and put them all on a timer, with a schedule like the regime. It would also be cool if the power system had a separate night light/emergency feed. These lights would always be on despite the timer/dimmer settings in other areas of the prison, and would remain on for a period of time if the generator was shut down. This would be useful if light levels eventually played a bigger role in the game, like a prisoner might be able to use the dark to sneak past a metal detector or into an area they shouldn't be in due to the darkness in a power outage.
Also, if we could get plexiglass windows/skylights, having a system to shut off or dim lights during the day would save a lot of power.
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paktsardines
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1. Utility Rooms
2. Inrush Power
3. Fading Lights and Brownouts
Wow, again, some really good stuff here. Thoughts on each:
1. I like the utility room idea! I can picture a scenario where one or more prisoners might plot breaking into the utility room to cut the electricity, disabling the cameras and metal detectors, and making good their escape.
2. I like the idea of gradually powering up the different sections of prison, that'd be very satisfying - particularly if accompanied by big electrical powering-up sounds. :) There's a point, somewhere, where too much detail with the electrical systems could hinder the fun (not for me, I should add), so perhaps have a simple and 'realistic' toggle for electrical systems somewhere in the difficulty/realism options?
3. Fading lights and brownouts are a brilliant, realistic and visual way to see where you need more power. I think it sure beats a flashing lightning bolt symbol.
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ElectricGlow
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paktsardines wrote:so perhaps have a simple and 'realistic' toggle for electrical systems somewhere in the difficulty/realism options?
That would be critically important - there shouldn't be micromanagement level that can effectively cripple the game. Also, the Dev's may think some (or even all) of these ideas are "beyond the scope" of the game, and that's fine too. I've seen other sim games where the game "works" with the default stuff you use, but it allows you to micromanage if you want better control and results. So a person would never have to fiddle with most of this stuff, but if they wanted to increase efficiency, reduce billing, or make the prison safer, they'd have to look deeper.
One idea would be that you could only put valves, switches, and unit substations in a utility room. I'm thinking the unit substation would take up three tiles - one tile would allow you to connect the high voltage feed (from three directions) and the other two would allow you to feed out low voltage cable (with five possible connection locations). Even better would be to have the unit substation act as a switch - you can turn off the incoming HV to kill everything, or turn off either of the two LV components to kill power there. Or maybe you'd have two components, a the HV (high voltage) input, and you'd stack up to a certain number of LV (low voltage) units next to the HV unit. Similar to how the generator and capacitor works.
Real life unit substation from Schneider Electric
Also the lights coming on/off in order as power goes on/off would be a cool (although electrically inaccurate) visual effect.
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ElectricGlow
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christopher1006
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I believe they said in the campaign the generator simply took electricity from the national grid, so sub-station I guess would be more accurate. Would be cool to actually have different types of generators, from cheaper fuel powered ones to solar/wind powered or even magnetic generators. Never heard of a prison that uses solar or wind powered but thats why it's a game, to try stuff that most wouldn't attempt in real world.
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ElectricGlow
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THE CHAIR
Note: this is covering the technical aspects of electrical execution, and the following should not be read as an endorsement of the real-world use of capital punishment or the people involved in the creation of use of any of these systems.
This post goes into details based on real systems, so people who are squeamish may not want to read the following.
Right now the system we have is the electric chair plugs into the prison grid (direct feed from cable tray or busway). In the real world no system is as simple as this. A low-voltage (120-600V) electric chair would have exceedingly gruesome results. The system I propose would be comprised of three main components, and one "optional" component. This is based loosely on the real world modular electrocution system utilized by many American States designed by the (now heavily disgraced) Fred A. Leuchter.
Chair Power Supply
This consists of a low-voltage power feed from the prison through a circuit breaker into the step-up transformer that steps the voltage up to around 2600 volts AC at up to 5 amps and saturable-core (for limiting current) reactor . After the transformer and reactor there is a high-voltage contactor (basically a remote-controlled switch) that feeds high voltage to the chair. The controller unit controls the high voltage contactor, as well as a DC power supply to saturate the transformer core during the electrocution. That allows the condemned to be hit initially with the full voltage of the system (resulting in instant unconsciousness due to interrupted electrical activity in the brain, faster than the brain can register pain signals) but after the condemned's electrical resistance decreases, the reactor core saturation limits the current to a few amperes - enough to ensure death but limited as to prevent damage to the equipment, the condemned catching on fire, and soforth. In the game this could just be a "black box" inside the execution room that is fed power from the prison grid. The chair power supply also acts as a point of isolation to allow safe access to the chair before and after the execution.
Chair Controller
The chair controller is a computerized device that sends commands to the chair power supply. It is where the executioners (or executioners) send the command to start the execution, and automates the application of electricity. It also has electronics to monitor the process and prevent a horrific botched electrocution.
Chair
The chair itself - not much different from what we have now.
Chair Test Unit "optional" component
Little box with resistors that simulate the human body's resistance. This is used to test the chair before an inmate is put in it. This prevents a cruel and unusual situation where the execution is botched or delayed.
This setup is loosely based on the Leuchter system documented here.
Note: this is covering the technical aspects of electrical execution, and the following should not be read as an endorsement of the real-world use of capital punishment or the people involved in the creation of use of any of these systems.
This post goes into details based on real systems, so people who are squeamish may not want to read the following.
Right now the system we have is the electric chair plugs into the prison grid (direct feed from cable tray or busway). In the real world no system is as simple as this. A low-voltage (120-600V) electric chair would have exceedingly gruesome results. The system I propose would be comprised of three main components, and one "optional" component. This is based loosely on the real world modular electrocution system utilized by many American States designed by the (now heavily disgraced) Fred A. Leuchter.
Chair Power Supply
This consists of a low-voltage power feed from the prison through a circuit breaker into the step-up transformer that steps the voltage up to around 2600 volts AC at up to 5 amps and saturable-core (for limiting current) reactor . After the transformer and reactor there is a high-voltage contactor (basically a remote-controlled switch) that feeds high voltage to the chair. The controller unit controls the high voltage contactor, as well as a DC power supply to saturate the transformer core during the electrocution. That allows the condemned to be hit initially with the full voltage of the system (resulting in instant unconsciousness due to interrupted electrical activity in the brain, faster than the brain can register pain signals) but after the condemned's electrical resistance decreases, the reactor core saturation limits the current to a few amperes - enough to ensure death but limited as to prevent damage to the equipment, the condemned catching on fire, and soforth. In the game this could just be a "black box" inside the execution room that is fed power from the prison grid. The chair power supply also acts as a point of isolation to allow safe access to the chair before and after the execution.
Chair Controller
The chair controller is a computerized device that sends commands to the chair power supply. It is where the executioners (or executioners) send the command to start the execution, and automates the application of electricity. It also has electronics to monitor the process and prevent a horrific botched electrocution.
Chair
The chair itself - not much different from what we have now.
Chair Test Unit "optional" component
Little box with resistors that simulate the human body's resistance. This is used to test the chair before an inmate is put in it. This prevents a cruel and unusual situation where the execution is botched or delayed.
This setup is loosely based on the Leuchter system documented here.
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paktsardines
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And, um... may I ask your occupation? :)
I don't know much about electricity stuff, so this will probably sound a little naive, but in my house all the high powered items (oven, hot water etc) are wired straight to the fusebox, while the low powered stuff (TVs, computers) connect to outlets.
think it would be cool to have the distinction between high powered items (electric chairs, ovens, etc) which have to be wired straight to the power source (the afore-mentioned substation?), vs TVs and the like, which need only low power.
As a possible example, providing wiring to one wall of a room could be enough to power all the electrical items in the room.
But, ovens and electric chairs need a lot more power and will need to be wired in directly.
I don't know much about electricity stuff, so this will probably sound a little naive, but in my house all the high powered items (oven, hot water etc) are wired straight to the fusebox, while the low powered stuff (TVs, computers) connect to outlets.
think it would be cool to have the distinction between high powered items (electric chairs, ovens, etc) which have to be wired straight to the power source (the afore-mentioned substation?), vs TVs and the like, which need only low power.
As a possible example, providing wiring to one wall of a room could be enough to power all the electrical items in the room.
But, ovens and electric chairs need a lot more power and will need to be wired in directly.
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