Holding cells major issues

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nibelung44
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Holding cells major issues

Postby nibelung44 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:03 am

Hey,

I have major issues almost from the start with prisoners staying in holding cells despite having rooms in dormitories. I can assure you that's not a pathfinding problem or zone restriction. Anyway, as you know, guards can bring people to any zone when they are cuffed. The top interface clearly shows I have more than the capacity for the 3 security levels. Before you ask, yes there is ample spare guards. The dormitories show no warning.

What I can say though is that except for the minimum security prisoners, there is no individual cells, only dormitories. At time, I manage to empty the holding cells (one for max and one for med security) but it involves assigning a dormitory as a single cell, wait for a prisoner to be moved in and then revert to dormitory.

It started when I was in under capacity in all 3 kind of security levels. I fixed the problem about that, but the issue still remain with inmates staying in holding cells. (Not all by the way, some are sent to a dormitory).

Things I thought about that, but I can't prove the issue:

a) a kind of deadlock problem with room grading.
b) gangs not wanting others people in their own dormitory

Aside that, I'm really clueless and the situation persists since perhaps 8 hours playing time. As you guess, it means a lot of heat and danger levels as inmates are very angry being contained in holding cells. I know I should try adding individual cells for everyone and see if that fixes the issue, but really, it feels like the game is forcing me to play in a specific direction.
murgh
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Re: Holding cells major issues

Postby murgh » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:08 am

Prisoners who need privacy will need a cell of their own, not holding cells or dormitories. I guess that's where your problem is, since you say you have no individual cells?
5B7f9A1XQioOmbpz
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Re: Holding cells major issues

Postby 5B7f9A1XQioOmbpz » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:16 am

- Security level issue
- Room quality issue

Solution:

Do not use Holding Cells and/or Dormitories. It's much better for danger levels anyhow to simply provide them with their individual cells. A lack of privacy is a great cause for upheaval.

On a more serious note, could you upload the prison somewhere? Steam Workshop or some file sharing service? Might help people to investigate the issue in more detail.
murgh
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Re: Holding cells major issues

Postby murgh » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:32 am

Yeah, throw it on http://prison-exchange.com/ so it's possible to check it out.
5B7f9A1XQioOmbpz
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Re: Holding cells major issues

Postby 5B7f9A1XQioOmbpz » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:02 pm

murgh wrote:http://prison-exchange.com/
O.o...

Insta-bookmark!
nibelung44
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Re: Holding cells major issues

Postby nibelung44 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:12 pm

Just to be clear, I totally understand that individual cells are better for the welfare of the prisoners. But this is a challenge of sort I'm doing, which is to accept all intakes and put them in dormitories*.

So what I want to know is if the game is not coping with that, i.e the prisoners have room in dormitories but it bugs somehow and they are not moved there, or if it is working as designed, i.e if they want privacy, they won't be put in dormitory, and that is something Introversion has coded specifically.

Or that a prisoner won't accept being moved into a cell with a too low grading.

But I think there is a bug, because I'm not asking 'please prisoner, go to this dormitory', that's a prisoner and I would like very much as the warden to have him put into dormitory, happy or not. I'll cope with riot, no problem (that's part of the fun and challenge).*

Here is the saved game, it uses a few mods but I don't think it will prevent you from loading the game if you don't have them (one is the office chair, etc.). The file is uploaded through wetransfer.com, a free, add-free service, there is no trojan or malware, rest assured:
https://we.tl/jTqHN15Jtw


*: Actually I lost the game some 12 hours in-game time afterward, but this was fun ;-)
5B7f9A1XQioOmbpz
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Re: Holding cells major issues

Postby 5B7f9A1XQioOmbpz » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:23 pm

Just had a look and... I died a little on the inside. Well, the prison architect in me died a little on the inside.

Anyhow, are you sure you're experiencing a bug? Because, the moment I loaded your prison, not a problem. All prisoners could be assigned a cell just fine. Maybe research the topic of cell quality and how it affects cell assignment. Also, your prison is insecure, or at least it was for me (I do not have any mods). The parole rooms were missing their southern wall, leading to a clear path of escape for the prisoners.

There certainly are bugs in PA, no doubt about that one but I've not seen one related to cell assignment in quite some time.
nibelung44
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Re: Holding cells major issues

Postby nibelung44 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:37 pm

I know how you might feel, this is slightly not tidy and OCS compliant :)
I'll repeat myself: accept all intakes, and no pausing. Try to do your best with that. But I admit I was mostly interested in seeing how long I can survive the spiraling of violence, plus I'm new to the game.
There is indeed the southern paroling wall which is unsecure, I was working on that when I saved.

About the issue, do you mean that the instant you loaded, all max sec in holding cell were moved to dormitories? It never happened to me. I guess that if you build indiv cells, it will work.
Because otherwise, for me too the top bar is saying I have enough room for all prisoners categories, but they are not moved correctly, the max sec at least.

Are you saying you can't put in a cell or dormitory a prisoner which has a too high cell grading for the dormitory??
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Re: Holding cells major issues

Postby 5B7f9A1XQioOmbpz » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:55 pm

nibelung44 wrote:I know how you might feel, this is slightly not tidy and OCS compliant :)
I'll repeat myself: accept all intakes, and no pausing. Try to do your best with that. But I admit I was mostly interested in seeing how long I can survive the spiraling of violence, plus I'm new to the game.
Actually, I was primarily concerned with the overall design, the lack of a perimeter wall and, this could be due to me not having the mods you do, a whole field full of doors that do nothing, serve no purpose whatsoever and were just... standing there.

nibelung44 wrote:About the issue, do you mean that the instant you loaded, all max sec in holding cell were moved to dormitories?
Whenever there is any cell assignment issue, you'll get a flashing warning sign over your current/capacity counter (top of the screen). It'll flash to inform you one or more prisoners could not be properly assigned to a cell. For example, when someone needs to go to solitary when you have none or, for example, when failing to assign prisoners to a cell proper. I saw no such warning sign. So, at face value, the prison at least was valid and "working as intended". Intended by the developers who made the game and intended by you who designed this particular prison.

nibelung44 wrote:Are you saying you can't put in a cell or dormitory a prisoner which has a too high cell grading for the dormitory??
Kind of. There are issues with cell quality at least. Which is part of the reason I do not use Holding Cells, Dormitories or different Cell Qualities. All cells in my prison always are of the exact same level. This way I simply work around any issues PA might still contain that involve cell quality and cell assignment. I've built quite a few prisons by now and I learned to work around PA's problems or around problematic prison designs.

You can, likewise, have a dramatic impact on PA's performance just by how you design the prison. Vast, open areas (such as the ones found in your prison) tend to have a detrimental effect on performance. It gives the pathing algorithm too many pathways to investigate. At least, it does for me. I don't have a monster CPU. I'd love one though! ;)
nibelung44
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Re: Holding cells major issues

Postby nibelung44 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:17 pm

Thanks for the replies all. It seems to be revolving around cell quality and/or privacy.

I'll accept that, although prisoners are not my 'guests'. They should take what I give them. I confirm that there is no flash warning on my side too and the game indicates properly there is enough room for all sub populations of prisoners, but it is (the game) not moving prisoners out of the holding cell.

I can lift your worry about these strange standing doors in an open field: I was buffering the demand for common objects, as I'm using a mod where you don't 'teleport' any object and each and everyone must be delivered first by truck. So I was building and deconstructing some common objects, so they could be stockpiled.

No issue on performance right now, but I can understand what you say. I dropped buildings as I could without any advance plan.
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Re: Holding cells major issues

Postby couchplayer » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:54 pm

It's cell quality. They're not getting assigned because there are no appropriate cells to assign them to. Privacy is just a need that does nothing except build up but never going critical, just makes it more likely for a prisoner to start saying they have complaints.
nibelung44
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Re: Holding cells major issues

Postby nibelung44 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:28 pm

Mmmh, so you mean it is mandatory ?

I can understand it leads to deadlock situations then... and I have read the wiki, in no place it says it is mandatory, just that they can become disgruntled if not receiving 'proper cell quality treatment'.
goodvibesman
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Re: Holding cells major issues

Postby goodvibesman » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:43 pm

nibelung44 wrote:Mmmh, so you mean it is mandatory ?

I can understand it leads to deadlock situations then... and I have read the wiki, in no place it says it is mandatory, just that they can become disgruntled if not receiving 'proper cell quality treatment'.


From the Steam guide:

"Prisoners who enter your prison new have a prisoner privilege of 3 fixed for the first three days as this number allows them to move straight into the lowest quality individual cells if such cells are free. Prisoners who do cause incidents have their privilege reset to ‘0’ and must move into holding cells or extremely basic individual cells until they can regain some privilege."

"Guards will move prisoners to appropriate cells as needed however prisoners will not be moved into cells too different from their deserved quality [Note - At current a prisoner may only occupy a cell two ranks higher than their privilege meaning rank 2 cells are required to house offending inmates immediately] and may be moved back to holding cells if they cause an incident and appropriate quality cell is not available."
Kodasa
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Re: Holding cells major issues

Postby Kodasa » Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:24 pm

To expand on the steam guide. What this means is that your Dormitory is probably of too high a quality for your new prisoners. It's probably a 5 or 6 maybe higher depending on the luxuries you've added to it. So you need to have a slightly lower grade dormitory or cellblock (As in, smaller space, LESS luxuries like TVs, Radios, bookshelves and such.) This should make sure they get assigned to the lower quality dormitory when they arrive, and then they'll be moved into the bigger, better quality one when they deserve it. This also means your prisoners who cause incidents won't be thrown into the holding cell after their punishment is over.
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Re: Holding cells major issues

Postby goodvibesman » Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:50 pm

Kodasa wrote:To expand on the steam guide. What this means is that your Dormitory is probably of too high a quality for your new prisoners. It's probably a 5 or 6 maybe higher depending on the luxuries you've added to it. So you need to have a slightly lower grade dormitory or cellblock (As in, smaller space, LESS luxuries like TVs, Radios, bookshelves and such.) This should make sure they get assigned to the lower quality dormitory when they arrive, and then they'll be moved into the bigger, better quality one when they deserve it. This also means your prisoners who cause incidents won't be thrown into the holding cell after their punishment is over.


I usually follow a spreadsheet and go with:

20% grade 1
25% grade 2
15% grade 3
20% grade 5
10% grade 7
10% grade 9

For 500 prisoners that would be 100 grade 1 cells, 125 grade 2 cells, 75 grade 3 cells, 100 grade 5 cells, 50 grade 7 cells and 50 grade 9 cells. Seems to work well enough. There's no need to have every single grade because prisoner entitlement changes often.

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