Old prison vs. Cell Grading

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Maximillian66
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Old prison vs. Cell Grading

Postby Maximillian66 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:21 am

So Alpha 34 hit midway through my first attempt at a really big prison.

Problem is it was based on a standard cell layout with every normal cell having the same size and contents meaning each is graded a 6.

Initially everything worked ok until prisoners started breaking the rules.

Net result is everything stopped working. Wounded prisoners litter the floor. Solitary cells are used as normal cells. Every night dozens of prisoners are left without a cell and must be manually assigned a bed. I turned off punishment as solitary stopped working even when manually assigning prisoners to cells. Much violence and projecting of buckshot followed.

So I assume that I will have to abandon this prison as it wont work with grading?

I find grading a weird concept anyway. Having actually worked for Corrective Services cells come in one type. Punishment usually involves removing all "luxuries" like TVs and books. A few cells with just the bed are reserved for the really bad cases (equivalent of solitary). No prison has a tank (Holding Cell) as they are at the police lock up. And yes I know that it is just a game.

Should I simply do something else until the next update.
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Pogmothoin
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Re: Old prison vs. Cell Grading

Postby Pogmothoin » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:43 am

There are lots of posts about cell grading already fella, try searching them for solutions.

Simply put, bad prisoners are not entitled to an average cell, they can only go in a bellow average cell or holding cell until they have behaved for long enough to be allowed back into an average cell. Holding cells are really just a stop gap to a cell, but they will be used if you don't have any cells that qualify for the prisoners, take some of the stuff out of half of your cells and you'll find the system better. Take all of the stuff except for bed/toilet out some of your cells for those who are terminally bad and everything will seem right.

Grade 6 cell is a pretty high standard to have, considering you are only required to build grade 1, and 10 is the maximum, which for all intensive purposes should really just be called a hotel room.

I don't see why you find the concept weird, as you say tv's and books are luxuries, not everyone deserves to have them.
RedTear
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Re: Old prison vs. Cell Grading

Postby RedTear » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:18 am

Pogmothoin wrote:There are lots of posts about cell grading already fella, try searching them for solutions.

Simply put, bad prisoners are not entitled to an average cell, they can only go in a bellow average cell or holding cell.

Not true. They are not entitled to a cell of a grade higher then 2(or was it 3?) (given that theid be grade 0 and there can be some difference between cell and their grade). That could be above average though.
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Re: Old prison vs. Cell Grading

Postby Maximillian66 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:06 am

I know that there are already a lot of posts. However few seemed to be talking about an existing prison setup.

The cells worked fine under 33.

It just means stripping down hundreds of cells with all the issues of storage and time, all while angry prisoners make the place too dangerous for workmen. By now most prisoners will be Grade 0.

My question was perhaps poorly expressed - if you have a single grading of cell can you work around the prisoner grading issue?

It appears the answer is no.

So it appears that short of emptying the prison it will need to be abandoned. Its not the cash as I can still sell it for two million, just the hours spent trying to design the most efficient prison.

Oh well, good bye Hellhole #3. Maybe I will wait to build Hellhole #4 until the grading system is bedded down.

With the luxuries they were removed then returned to the same cell IRL so the cell stayed the same while the contents changed. This is important as most modern prisons are overcrowded with 100%+ of the planned capacity meaning you don't have spare empty cells to transfer prisoners to. A punishment "solitary cell" is stripped down to just the bed and the toilet. So yes you have "grading" in real prisons only it is done by changing a standard cell not by having a range of different cells.
Inge Jones
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Re: Old prison vs. Cell Grading

Postby Inge Jones » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:54 pm

In a real prison if they found they only had a fixed number of enhanced and basic cells, I feel sure they'd simply adjust the bar so that only the top x many good behavers qualified for enhanced and the x many bad behavers qualified for basic? No? But it's easier in real prisons, mostly its done by allowing the prisoner to keep more possessions in the cell, and have more visits not some expensive remodelling.

A more realistic way to use the more nicely equipped cells would be that in return for fewer prisoners per sq ft, which brings in less revenue from prisoner numbers, there is likely to be a better rate of rehabilitation and fewer inmate incidents. Some prisons try to offer humane conditions for all their inmates, with rewards coming in the form of more privileges rather than better equipped accommodation. And this pretty much brings us full circle to the debate we have from time to time about shared cells. More revenue from more prisoners per sq ft, but with the paydown that there are likely to be more incidents to deal with.
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Pogmothoin
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Re: Old prison vs. Cell Grading

Postby Pogmothoin » Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:17 pm

Maximillian66 wrote:My question was perhaps poorly expressed - if you have a single grading of cell can you work around the prisoner grading issue?

It appears the answer is no.


The answer is yes tbh, if you have several decent sized holding cells. In my prison I have 6 holding cells with beds for roughly 200 inmates (in truth they can handle twice that), If you don't want to multigrade your cells then you need to have holding cells for them to sleep in, and make solitary staff only. Bad prisoners live in the holding cells til they behave, good and new prisoners go to the cells.
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Re: Old prison vs. Cell Grading

Postby chaleur » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:10 pm

I think the answer is yes -- make them all the lowest possible grade. Tell me if I am missing something, but I don't see any reason to have cells higher than grade 0. Then you never have to worry about getting hit with people more likely to offend because they are in lower quality cells, and you can just assign all your prisoners free time so they don't have to be in their cells except if they are tired. I don't really see any penalty for having all grade 0 cells, nor any benefit to having higher grades.

If I am missing something please tell me what, 'cause I'm about to make a new design.
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Pogmothoin
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Re: Old prison vs. Cell Grading

Postby Pogmothoin » Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:27 am

chaleur wrote:If I am missing something please tell me what, 'cause I'm about to make a new design.


Yer missing a lot.

It's very rare that anyone misbehaves because they are in a bellow average cell, it's more likely that the people in those cells are the people who are always getting into trouble regardless of what cell quality they have, usually because they are volatile or easily led by instigators.
Also above average cells are very useful for preventing people from even attempting to escape via tunnels if they are near the perimeter.
If you have no bellow average cells then any prisoner that misbehaves automatically gets put in a holding cell until they qualify for an average cell, you don't really want all your worst behaved prisoners living in the same cell, because if one kicks off they all kick off, that's how riots start.

Finally I don't think the designer likes people using grade 0 cells, so that feature could easily be removed making the minimum requirement grade 1 again, and you'd need to redesign every cell. Also the cell grading feature has been implemented, but not fully fleshed out, so there could still be a lot of reasons for having multiple different grades of cell, not least of which gangs.

The OP asked if it was possible to run a prison full of cells the same grade, and it is, it's just not something I would do or advise anyone else to do.
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Re: Old prison vs. Cell Grading

Postby RedTear » Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:49 am

Pogmothoin wrote:
chaleur wrote:Finally I don't think the designer likes people using grade 0 cells, so that feature could easily be removed making the minimum requirement grade 1 again, and you'd need to redesign every cell.
I see no indication of that, in fact the indication was the exact oppisite. "This system is optional - if you make your cells all the same (and of a low enough grade) it wont make a difference".
Roughly approximating what they said in the alpha video introducing the cell grading system.

Oh and also, your whole stuff about "below average" and "average" is completly off. They never deserve a "below average" or "above average" cell. They deserve for instance a grade 2 cell. A grade 2 cell can be above average or below average in your prison.
Last edited by RedTear on Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
xakthos
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Re: Old prison vs. Cell Grading

Postby xakthos » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:26 am

If there are no holding cells though what happens to the prisoners? Do they get left in the halls?
ancar
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Re: Old prison vs. Cell Grading

Postby ancar » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:38 am

I run a 500+ prison with mid sec only and I use 1x3 grade 0 cells for all prisoners. No incident for 50 Days then i missed one snitch who got shanked :shock:
So it works really well to run grade 0 cells for everyone if you dont like the grading system.
Inge Jones
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Re: Old prison vs. Cell Grading

Postby Inge Jones » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:30 pm

Redtear, that's a good point. Otherwise if you run your prison well and every one behaves well, you either have to make 3 times the ammount of cells you need so that your prisoners can all be in an above average one, or the game has to have a concept of average behavious in the context of your prison, and make it competitive.
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Re: Old prison vs. Cell Grading

Postby Maximillian66 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:55 pm

Well Hellhole #3 ended like the battle of Rorke's Drift, with a line of armed guards firing at a swarming mass of over 200 rioting prisoners. I was converting the storage room into a holding cell when it kicked off. They set fire to the services building too and the firemen couldn't go in till the riot was put down. 33 deaths although only 21 showed up under death's in custody so maybe if prisoners or guards burn it doesn't count. No escapees though!

Hellhole #4 was a lot better with every cell starting as a grade 3 backed by a large holding cell. Got up to 650 prisoners when bad design (and frame rate drops) meant that the prisoners all bunched up at bottle necks and started killing each other.

So Hellhole #5 will have two grades of cells - 3s & 6s again with a holding cell and proper corridor layout.

Can I reach 1,000 prisoners.......

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