Disappointed in the updates & frequency..

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Foxsake
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Postby Foxsake » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:16 am

DHKold wrote:
paktsardines wrote:It's also not the sort of problem that can be solved faster by throwing more programmers at it.

That, of course, is totally wrong. Almost any developpment (except for the very tiny one like single function or so) can be split.
Actually, developping many features is easy to split, giving that the interfaces and other things are well defined.

Also, it's possible to have people working on new features, other enhancing and correcting bugs, some architects designing functional stuff, etc.

There are actually plainty of ways to split the work. But I think that Introversion just doesn't want to grow too much :)


Go read the mythical man month. Then come back.
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Postby DHKold » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:10 pm

Foxsake wrote:
DHKold wrote:
paktsardines wrote:It's also not the sort of problem that can be solved faster by throwing more programmers at it.

That, of course, is totally wrong. Almost any developpment (except for the very tiny one like single function or so) can be split.
Actually, developping many features is easy to split, giving that the interfaces and other things are well defined.

Also, it's possible to have people working on new features, other enhancing and correcting bugs, some architects designing functional stuff, etc.

There are actually plainty of ways to split the work. But I think that Introversion just doesn't want to grow too much :)


Go read the mythical man month. Then come back.


Where did I say anything about a linear law between development time and workers? If it's of course true to say that "9 women can't make a baby in one month", it would also be false to say that "one man building a car alone do it as quick as 2" ...

Not even Frederick Brooks can pretend that work can never be split... So, either you tell me why you think prison Architect is the kind of dev that cannot be split, or you go check all those companies that have more than one guy working on their product...
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Postby Foxsake » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:33 pm

You mean like the company I own? We have more than one guy working on most things.

You implied it was simple. It isn't. But you seem to agree that it isn't so I don't see the point in arguing about trivialities. I'm pretty sure Introversion will make sure the game has the attention it requires while maintaining coherence (in art, story, game balance and mechanics).

As you know, nine woman cannot make a baby in 1 month.

I also believe that IV have been more than honest in their update frequency and also consistent. They don't owe you anything other than a complete game at some indeterminate future date.
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Postby Mas Tnega » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:46 pm

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Introversion is keeping solidly in mind what happened last time they hired more people. They... they weren't always a two-man operation.
DHKold
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Postby DHKold » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:29 pm

Foxsake wrote:You implied it was simple. It isn't. But you seem to agree that it isn't so I don't see the point in arguing about trivialities. I'm pretty sure Introversion will make sure the game has the attention it requires while maintaining coherence (in art, story, game balance and mechanics).

Indeed, I agree. My point was not to say it's easy as pie, but to respond to the "it's a one man job" thing ^^ I'm glad we agree on that :p
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Re: Disappointed in the updates & frequency..

Postby Nat3ski » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:56 pm

VoiD88 wrote: for a game written by just one guy, it's developing quite quickly in my opinion^^


I think thats the point right there. They promised a game you can play now and updates on a monthlyish basis. Is that not what has been supplied?

But naturally, you are indeed entitled to you opinion. And i, for one, am sorry that you feel that PA is not progressing at the pace you feel it should.

Perhaps future updates will be more substantial and satiate your appetite.
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Re: Disappointed in the updates & frequency..

Postby Mas Tnega » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:12 pm

Nat3ski wrote:I think thats the point right there. They promised a game you can play now and updates on a monthlyish basis. Is that not what has been supplied?
I don't know, let's look at the dates:
Alpha 1: 25th September
Alpha 2: 18th October (24 days later)
Alpha 3: 1st November (14 days later)
Alpha 4: 19th November (19 days later)
Alpha 5: 14th December (25 days later)
Alpha 6: 30th January (47 days later)
Alpha 7: 21st February (22 days later)
Alpha 8: 20th March (27 days later)

So, Alpha 6 aside, they've plainly met that and even if you do count it, updates have a 25 day average.
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paktsardines
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Postby paktsardines » Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:30 am

Spot. On.


edit: I missed this comment earlier
I've been working on tons of projects, with many kinds of splitting, different team sizes (from small 2-4 to big 100 with full hierarchy), on new or existing products.
But, of course, if you have better experience, share it with me, I like to learn.


Well, if we're going to measure our bits, I own a software engineering firm that develops and sells monitoring software, primarily to government. I employ a small team of very specialised, very effective programmers who are really good at what they do. I find them to be just as effective, if not more so, as a team twice their size. With larger teams but the management overhead quickly starts to out-pace the increased productivity (which is far from linear; you can't double the size of a team and expect double the output. It simply doesn't work that way). Prior to that, I was a software engineer for 15ish years, with about half that in government and half in private.

Two heads aren't always better than one, particularly when one head has all the knowledge.
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Postby nedks » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:10 pm

After what everyone said I still think they can release an update every two weeks. There not that big the updates are they? Also most of us paid 30 pounds for that price they should be coming out every WEEK! I know people are gonna hate me for this but I think they need to try harder and really think how much we all paid for an alpha! The last thing is he rarely posts on the forum about what is happening.

Besides all this I really love the game!
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Postby Mas Tnega » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:56 pm

Paying more money for it doesn't accelerate one man's work.
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Postby DHKold » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:46 am

paktsardines wrote:Spot. On.


edit: I missed this comment earlier
I've been working on tons of projects, with many kinds of splitting, different team sizes (from small 2-4 to big 100 with full hierarchy), on new or existing products.
But, of course, if you have better experience, share it with me, I like to learn.


Well, if we're going to measure our bits, I own a software engineering firm that develops and sells monitoring software, primarily to government. I employ a small team of very specialised, very effective programmers who are really good at what they do. I find them to be just as effective, if not more so, as a team twice their size. With larger teams but the management overhead quickly starts to out-pace the increased productivity (which is far from linear; you can't double the size of a team and expect double the output. It simply doesn't work that way). Prior to that, I was a software engineer for 15ish years, with about half that in government and half in private.

Two heads aren't always better than one, particularly when one head has all the knowledge.


So you got a team. Why not just one man since you seem to think he could do the same job as fast as a team?
I repeat the same thing again, but I never said it's linear, always usefullor anything like that. I say that it's almost always possible, for non-travial projects, to increase dev speed by hiring more than one guy. The optimal is hardly never "one guy". For the current case, I think it would be possible to divide at least the rendering part and the logic.

And I don't say I want or advice to do it. If they're happy how it works now, let it be, it's just as fine for me, all I care is that they continue to do a nice game :p
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Postby joleran » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:06 pm

nedks wrote:After what everyone said I still think they can release an update every two weeks. There not that big the updates are they? Also most of us paid 30 pounds for that price they should be coming out every WEEK! I know people are gonna hate me for this but I think they need to try harder and really think how much we all paid for an alpha! The last thing is he rarely posts on the forum about what is happening.


Check out the release notes, there's actually quite a bit going on considering the developer "team" size.
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Postby gpgekko » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:16 pm

nedks wrote:After what everyone said I still think they can release an update every two weeks. There not that big the updates are they? Also most of us paid 30 pounds for that price they should be coming out every WEEK! I know people are gonna hate me for this but I think they need to try harder and really think how much we all paid for an alpha! The last thing is he rarely posts on the forum about what is happening.

Besides all this I really love the game!

So now you think they should A) make updates more frequently B) write a daily report about what they are doing? That's more work in less time. You know, why don't you give it a shot yourself? Try build your own version of this game idea and see how you do. :P Really, they're working hard and are delivering as they promised when you bought.

Now what you should really understand is that what you get in the updates is just FINISHED content. Stop saying the updates aren't that big, dig around in the data files, there is a big chunk of content to be found that is not yet implemented, but certainly in development. And then still, combining the finished content and the content you can find in the data files, you won't be able to say anything about how much work is delivered because for all you know they have completely changed the code for a key game mechanic in an update.

Can they release an update every two weeks? Sure. Can they release an update every week. Maybe. But it would slow progress down (making a stable, release worthy build can take a fair bit of time) and really, if you think the updates aren't big right now, releasing more often will only make the updates smaller.

Yes you paid 30 pounds. Congratulations, in my eyes, you made a good deal and supported a great project. But you chose to do that on promises that are being met. I don't think I have paid much for an alpha. Why should an alpha be cheaper then a finished game? If anything, you might reason it should be more expensive cause you get more play time and might even get to play with features that get taken out of the finished game.
Contact a painter. Ask him if a ordering a new painting is cheaper then buying one he already finished. Wanna put a bet on it?
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Postby teknotel » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:21 pm

Kyronami wrote:I myself have dabbled in game programming so I can understand how hard it is, especially for a small team, to release content. That being said, I am getting a little bored of the current game as when you have your prison going theres really nothing left to do. Hopefully we can see the next few patches add content instead of just the cosmetic things we've been seeing so far


This is a very good point. The game could be incredible however it needs so much more to complete it. I bought the most expensive package to support the game in the hope this will happen.

At the moment it seems virtually impossible to house normal - max security prisoners, they just constantly fight,, smash the place up and attempt to escape. It also is impossible to make enough money to accommodate the influx of new prisoners. But once you have built your prison where does the game go? I am hoping this is the main thing that is being worked on now as it seems to go no where. It needs something like missions to make it complete and the AI needs some dramatic reworking. It also needs more rooms and the ability to shape prisoner behaviour.

Prison is a correctional facility, maybe adding a church and school rooms will help to mellow out the more troublesome of prisoners. Also do prisoners ever leave? I think this should be part of the game so there is a cycle of prisoners leaving and arriving. Maybe increase the day cycle to week cycle and allow prisoners to actually serve their sentences and leave.

Fantastic job so far IV, however I really hope you agree that this game is maybe 25% complete and strive to make this indie release, actually the huge game it could really be. Look at theme hospital. This could be much bigger.
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Postby Bob3104558 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:51 pm

To be honest I expected at least some of that money the game raised to be used to bring on another person. If not what is the money going twords?

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