Fighting Piracy

General chit-chat and minor questions about just about anything

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Join993
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Postby Join993 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:52 pm

Wmayes0412 wrote:Dirty pirates?

I am appalled.
I am no worse a man than you, nor any better.

If it was illegal the website would be taken down. Yet it still stands.




Oh, and I am not pretending to linger.


That's wrong on so many levels that I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone would make such a stupid statement. Heroin is illegal, but for some inexplicable reason you can still buy it. Child pornography is also illegal, yet it can be found on the internet.

I'm not taking a stand in this discussion, but I hope you realize what a stupid statement you made.
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Postby wildweasel1 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:29 pm

DHKold wrote:
wildweasel1 wrote:The thing that needs to be remembered is this type of theft is not the same as walking into a store a stealing physical merchandise (This is factored in to business cost as shrinkage), or stealing property from someones house. There is no actual cost to the owner of the IP other than a potential lost sale, there is no upfront or replacement cost. In some cases it does prompt people to buy it like a demo would. The best thing the devs could do would be to flood a bunch of early alphas on torrents with no mention of them being alphas. Then clearly state in game that it is an alpha and where and how to get the full version. At release this will make it a lot harder to find a full pirated copy.

Even if I don't disagree, I must ask this: making a physical game requires very few money. plastic, dvd, printer paper. It's cheap. I would be very surprised if, for large number, it's over $0.5 a box. So with your argument, one could just steal that box and send $0.5? But then you would miss the main cost of a product, which starts by design and continues until marketing and support. That's why any product has a price over its physical production/distribution cost.

Virtual just decrease/removes distribution and concentrates the production into one huge single "developpment".

Lets imagine you've a car company, you design and develop a new car, it costs you $1M (R&D, etc.). You budgetise $1M for marketing, sales, etc. You expect to sell 1000 cars. You need 1h to build a car and it cost you $1000. Simple math says you need to sell each car $3000 to avoid a loss.

Now lets say you're a virtual car company. You design and develop a virtual car, it costs you $1M. Marketing, sales etc is still $1M. But then you only need to build one car to be able to duplicate it freely. This one time production takes 1000h and has a $1M cost. You still need to sell each car $3000. But since this is virtual and the car can be copied, you face arguments like "it's virtual, it does not cost anything to duplicate so I can download one without paying".

I disagree. You're actually making other pay for you. Of course one could say that once the company has reach profit, it's not that bad. But then it would be the same for the first company, saying what they earn on other cars cover largely the one you steal.

And for the argument : I they don't steal it, they won't buy it either. So? How is it bad for the company. For little ones, that may be a good way to get known, but I think a huge rate of piracy concerns well known and established products, that don't need it to make the buzz. Maybe only 0.1% of pirates would actually buy the game, that's still higher than 0.


I'm not against piracy, but I don't think those "justifications" make sense outside of a court.


Clearly you don't understand economics or what I was talking about. The $.05 worth of production (which is more like $5.00) would only apply if the stole it from the devs office. a retailer would likely pay about $30 for a game they would retail for $60 for every 1000 units sold they would factor in a 10 unit loss due to damage, theft or returns and would expect a certain amount of profit from selling it. While they would not leave the store unlocked at night they would not want to spend so much on security that it would eat up more than say 10% of their profits especially if it made it harder for customers to buy the product from them. If they had no security and 1000 units were sold they would have a net loss of $30,000 and no revenue.

As far as the virtual product goes its a numbers game. You make a piece of IP your production costs are say $100,000. You sell the rights to use that for $20 you need to sell 5000 units to make back your costs. If your IP sucks you only sell 6000 units if your IP is really good you sell 500,000 units. one scenario you make $20,000 in profit for selling a crappy IP the other you make 9.9 million because it was good. both IP would likely be pirated, but is it the pirating that caused one IP to not make as much money? I recently bought "The WarZ" for $50 what a piece of crap that is. That's a case of the developers stealing money from us. I have also played Mech Warrior 2 and Planetside 2 without spending a dime (both excellent games BTW) but it has not hurt either of those companies profit margins.

Not every piece of IP is going to make money, sometimes the production costs are to high and there are just not enough people interested in the product to pay for it. When you consider all the good games that make money even though they get pirated as well, I think the answer is obvious, make a good game and you will make money. Every pirated copy is not a lost sale. I would say that very few sales are lost due to pirating, because the people that pirate games will find a way to do it and most likely would not buy it if they couldn't. What you wan't to do is make it more convenient for lazy people to buy you game rather than steal it and make it good enough that they want to buy it in the first place.

I am by no means advocating the theft of software, I myself am a game buying junkie with over 300 games on my steam account a large number of which I have never even loaded. I also bought this game sight unseen after reading about it on PC Gamer. I do however listen to the radio occasionally but I don't buy music and I go to library but rarely buy books I think the musicians and writers will do fine without me.
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Postby wildweasel1 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:34 pm

Join993 wrote:
Wmayes0412 wrote:Dirty pirates?

I am appalled.
I am no worse a man than you, nor any better.

If it was illegal the website would be taken down. Yet it still stands.




Oh, and I am not pretending to linger.


That's wrong on so many levels that I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone would make such a stupid statement. Heroin is illegal, but for some inexplicable reason you can still buy it. Child pornography is also illegal, yet it can be found on the internet.

I'm not taking a stand in this discussion, but I hope you realize what a stupid statement you made.

Why are you finding child porn on the internet? sicko -
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Postby laser50 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:44 pm

wildweasel1 wrote:
Join993 wrote:
Wmayes0412 wrote:Dirty pirates?

I am appalled.
I am no worse a man than you, nor any better.

If it was illegal the website would be taken down. Yet it still stands.




Oh, and I am not pretending to linger.


That's wrong on so many levels that I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone would make such a stupid statement. Heroin is illegal, but for some inexplicable reason you can still buy it. Child pornography is also illegal, yet it can be found on the internet.

I'm not taking a stand in this discussion, but I hope you realize what a stupid statement you made.

Why are you finding child porn on the internet? sicko -


Why are you assuming he does? Google it and I'm sure you'll find enough hits.
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Postby Ric666 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:45 pm

wildweasel1 wrote:I am by no means advocating the theft of software, I myself am a game buying junkie with over 300 games on my steam account a large number of which I have never even loaded. I also bought this game sight unseen after reading about it on PC Gamer. I do however listen to the radio occasionally but I don't buy music and I go to library but rarely buy books I think the musicians and writers will do fine without me.


Radios have paid for licenses to play that music. Librarys either buy or are gifted the books....Not the same thing as piracy.
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Postby Daimaju » Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:38 pm

Ric666 wrote:
FlamingWheel wrote:If you make a thread about piracy on a place for discussion and expect only one side of the party to show up you really have a lot to learn.


I didn't make it..........


Nah, but you participated and failed with the ban-request anyways :P
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Postby NeatNit » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:00 pm

Mas Tnega wrote:
NeatNit wrote:
Mas Tnega wrote:Compare Minecraft + Technic against Vanilla Minecraft; Vanilla is seriously bland shit.

Hey, watch where you say such things!! :cry:
Would you have preferred a non-goon-made mod pack?
It's just that the IV community has a vanilla Minecraft server... ;)
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Postby InsightSoul » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:55 pm

Pirates convert to paying customers. Paying customers don't convert to pirates.
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Postby NeatNit » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:28 pm

Everyone seems to be forgetting about how much word-of-mouth piracy gives you. The game sells so much more when it has active pirates, because so many more people know about it.


I myself have never pirated a game (or even music and movie) in the past few years, and I hate on people who do it when they actually believe it's perfectly okay to do it (many don't). But don't forget how this is actually beneficial.
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Daimaju
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Postby Daimaju » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:41 pm

^
At least someone get's it...
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Postby DHKold » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:08 pm

wildweasel1 wrote:Clearly you don't understand economics or what I was talking about. The $.05 worth of production (which is more like $5.00) would only apply if the stole it from the devs office. a retailer would likely pay about $30 for a game they would retail for $60 for every 1000 units sold they would factor in a 10 unit loss due to damage, theft or returns and would expect a certain amount of profit from selling it. While they would not leave the store unlocked at night they would not want to spend so much on security that it would eat up more than say 10% of their profits especially if it made it harder for customers to buy the product from them. If they had no security and 1000 units were sold they would have a net loss of $30,000 and no revenue.

I kown that. My point is that if you stole a "virtual" copy, you're taking a part of something that has a cost to be made without paying your part. Of course when stealing physical from stores it cost to the vendor. What I was trying to say is that ether you think the product is worth it and you pay your part to use it. Either you think it's not worth it and you don't.
I really don't care about piracy not being a "loss" for industry, I eventually agree to that. Even if you were actually giving money to pirate, I would think it's still irrelevant. Because my main point is:

- There is a rule in the society forbidding to pirate. You follow the rules, you (should) get the right to be treated following those. If you don't respect them on purpose, you're 'out of the contract' and should expect society reaction.

wildweasel1 wrote:As far as the virtual product goes its a numbers game. You make a piece of IP your production costs are say $100,000. You sell the rights to use that for $20 you need to sell 5000 units to make back your costs. If your IP sucks you only sell 6000 units if your IP is really good you sell 500,000 units. one scenario you make $20,000 in profit for selling a crappy IP the other you make 9.9 million because it was good. both IP would likely be pirated, but is it the pirating that caused one IP to not make as much money? I recently bought "The WarZ" for $50 what a piece of crap that is. That's a case of the developers stealing money from us. I have also played Mech Warrior 2 and Planetside 2 without spending a dime (both excellent games BTW) but it has not hurt either of those companies profit margins.

As I said I don't care about piracy not being a loss for companies. I think it's unfair one pay to play and one other not. I think there is law and that either nobody or anybody has to follow it.

wildweasel1 wrote:Not every piece of IP is going to make money, sometimes the production costs are to high and there are just not enough people interested in the product to pay for it. When you consider all the good games that make money even though they get pirated as well, I think the answer is obvious, make a good game and you will make money. Every pirated copy is not a lost sale. I would say that very few sales are lost due to pirating, because the people that pirate games will find a way to do it and most likely would not buy it if they couldn't. What you wan't to do is make it more convenient for lazy people to buy you game rather than steal it and make it good enough that they want to buy it in the first place.

I am by no means advocating the theft of software, I myself am a game buying junkie with over 300 games on my steam account a large number of which I have never even loaded. I also bought this game sight unseen after reading about it on PC Gamer. I do however listen to the radio occasionally but I don't buy music and I go to library but rarely buy books I think the musicians and writers will do fine without me.

I'm not pretending I never pirate anything. It happened I had this documents to read and the only program able to read it was expensive. So instead of buying a $100 program for a one day usage, I pirated. It happened I wonder if a game is worth the price and pirated it to test it. But i'm not justifying it, I can explain why I did it, but will not pretend it was my right. It's one thing doing something illegal, it's another to pretend it's right.
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Postby phoenixca » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:09 pm

Daimaju wrote:^
At least someone get's it...


Stardock certainly does. They threw-up their hands long ago and said "Screw it, we aren't going to make the lives of our paying customers any harder over this." CDProjekt RED, same thing. Gods, I love those guys. My relationship with them as a customer is one of "HERE! TAKE MY MONEY!"
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Postby NeatNit » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:23 pm

phoenixca wrote:
Daimaju wrote:^
At least someone get's it...


Stardock certainly does. They threw-up their hands long ago and said "Screw it, we aren't going to make the lives of our paying customers any harder over this." CDProjekt RED, same thing. Gods, I love those guys. My relationship with them as a customer is one of "HERE! TAKE MY MONEY!"
I love companies that do this.

For the record, Introversion has been doing this since the very beginning. No IV game came with any DRM except a CD key for multiplayer games.
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Postby m3mphis » Mon May 13, 2013 1:53 pm

I don't know, but seeing all those builds flying around, shortly after new release is kinda sad. The facts are cold, but people which are interested already wishlisted or bought the game. Excuses for being 30$ alpha and all is cheap, because many are spending hard $$$ on kickstarter/preorders. I suppose single key validation would at least stop it for a bit. Same method is being used by Chris/Kenshi Dev. Btw, I myself been saving for 2months ;).

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