30$+ Price tag = No thanks

General chit-chat and minor questions about just about anything

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estel
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Postby estel » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:34 pm

Illanair wrote:
estel wrote:
Illanair wrote:That article has nothing on the topic of not allowing pre-orders. All it does is show that the Xenonaut developers didn't properly negotiate having a large scale account properly with Paypal. Paypal have a right to freeze accounts which are investigated for fraud or other suspicious transactions.

Baseline : Want to do large scale business via any in-direct 3rd party solution? Communicate - Kickstarter projects are only "whitelisted" on Amazon because Kickstarter have already made the necessary agreements.



The linked Xenonauts blog post was entitled "Pre-orders are a scam according to Paypal" and in the comments Chris wrote:

The reason it’s frustrating is we were initially told that we couldn’t accept pre-orders on the site, but selling a one-off forum subscription with a free game was fine by them. Hence surprise when they asked for more information on the account 12 months later and then locked us when we gave the same explanation.


That is definitely to do with pre-orders.

That is, of course, not to say that communication isn't the most key element in any such business arrangement, but Paypal are not the world's greatest payment processor and their scale often results in their processes being followed blindly and communication difficult. There are enough horror stories involving Paypal acting unreasonably that I can't envisage using them as a merchant ever.


...actually it was titled "Enemy Known: Xenonauts vs Paypal".

And as you could have read it properly and realized I was talking about the Paypal TOS and Pre-Orders as a thing in general, not specific to Xenonauts - a topic the blog never commented upon, or even attempted to get sources on.


Sorry, I was referring to the blog post linked to by RPS.
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Postby mik3k » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:34 pm

Illanair wrote:And ironically such legal loopholes only work in parts of the world - The EU have protection from such ludicrous attempts at bypassing basic salesman/customer loopholes.

You've shared your opinion that you find it too expensive - you may leave now.


Haha, it's pretentious dicks like you that make supporting indie devs a pain in the ass. Give your money, kiss their ass. Anyone says a single negative thing - that sounds like George Bush and "if you ain't wit us, you agin' us."

I'm here, paid for my ticket. I'll say what I want to say.

You don't like it - You leave. No sense in being an asshat.
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Postby Illanair » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:57 pm

The only person acting remotely dickish is you, Mik. But thanks for the laugh. :roll:
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Postby Masochist » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:23 pm

Illanair wrote:The only person acting remotely dickish is you, Mik. But thanks for the laugh. :roll:


+1 lol
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Postby mik3k » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:19 am

Harhar - You guys done rubbing oil on each other?

Back to the game. After having played it. I say if you have the money it's a buy. It isn't worth $30 yet, but a nice game.

The people that cannot buy it at this point - Dwarf Fortress is king - Nothing close. And it's free. If you like it consider a donation to the dev because that is how he makes his living. Maybe $31 for an awesome game. Second place on Desura is Gnomoria which is something like $4.00. Don't let the condescending jaw jackers on this forum (and every forum with overly rabid fans) tell you Introversion's sh-t don't stink. Any other dev pulls this stuff and these same people would be having a seizure right about now because of the brain overload.

WTF - That bronze loyalty badge look exactly like a body part. You get one of those for kissing that part enough times or just sticking your head up there?

EDIT - And I should add the only beef I have here is with the "fans." You make put an ugly stain on a dev and their game. Because some people express their opinions on the price of a game they should GTFO, leave, learn to save, etc. Not all of them have access to mommy's credit card. Decent die hard fans all have different circumstances.

I completely support devs and games I like - bought 5 copies of Minecraft, 7 of Terraria, hundreds of commercial games and at least 100 indie games. Games and devs don't need condensceding fans that attack anybody that dares to disagree with any part of a game or the way it is marketed. That is called feedback. If I like this game and buy multiple copies for friends and family that is also feedback.

I bet there are more "fans" that share their copy of games with their friends while at the same time attacking others.

Rant over. Gotta save some of this energy for the game.
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Postby Radiobuzz » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:15 am

I don't want to take sides in what appears to be a personal war but I agree with mik3k, we are all under different circumstances so 30 bucks being in the US may not seem like much, less even being in the UK, but not all of us live on the first world. And paying money to the developers is not the only way you can help them. I have bought all Introversion games myself when I had the chance but it hasn't been like that since day one. I pirated Darwinia way before I could afford it, and although I knew it was wrong at least I made a pretty good Spanish translation of the game, mantain it throughout the patches, wrote on my blog and on different forums about it and pretty much forced everyone I know to play it using my translation.

Not that I'm furious of the 30 bucks thing though, I will buy the game in the future when I get the chance, but I guess I'm not really seeing an utility in having a paid alpha.
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Postby Illanair » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:39 am

I love how disagreeing even remotely with your very ... extreme views is considered brown-nosing. But I guess those responses are just to be expected by an anti-fanboy (Not that I claim fanboyism on my part - I'm just realistic about game development)

You mention two titles - DF and Gnomoria. By chance have you noticed for how long Dwarf Fortress has been in development - how long it has taken dear old Toady to fix some of the most critical and game breaking bugs through the years? No? That's what you expect when a game runs solely on donations. As for Gnomoria I cannot comment, but I can only imagine it being a single man project run "on the side" with a lack of focused "9-5" workday.

Edit: Oh an as far as the GTFO bit - You've made your opinions quite clear - at this point you're just repeating them ad nauseum as if you feel you have a need to remind everyone who disagrees how wrong they are. Hence the "You may leave now" comment. Nobody likes a parrot with nothing new to say. :P
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Postby Masochist » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:12 am

Radiobuzz wrote:I don't want to take sides in what appears to be a personal war but I agree with mik3k, we are all under different circumstances so 30 bucks being in the US may not seem like much..


lolwhat?

Given out current cesspool state I can certainly say $30 is a lot more than it used to be...and less at the same time due to inflation. The value of the dollar is weak at best and so prices are going up all over the place...but as a general rule wages are not...and we are in the worst economic and job situation we have been in since the great depression in the 20's. Contrary to what some people may thing or believe..."most" Americans are not rich or well off or even "ok" financially.

I just don't understand the point of whining so much...

You think $30 is ok...so you buy it... OR

You think its too much but still buy it...why continue complaining? OR

You think its over priced and complain constantly...why? it wont magically change it.

If you want it and cant afford it then save some money up...That's what I have to do and I do it all the time. Sometimes it takes a few weeks or in a worst case scenario a few months...but I have yet to die yet from doing so.

We live in a "right now" world where we have been trained to want now now now. Its great for any business that thrives on consumption (pretty much every business) when the masses believe in an impatient lifestyle.



It simply ruins the community vibe and feel of a forum when so many people are nitpicking the financial choices of other people who are free to do so when they have their own lives and bills and etc to pay for.

Despite what so many believe...its not our decision to decide what its worth. IV sets the price point. If you disagree then don't buy it...its REALLY simple!
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Postby Radiobuzz » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:05 am

Here's a kitten so you all calm down a bit.

Image
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Postby a__gun » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:37 am

Radiobuzz wrote:Here's a kitten so you all calm down a bit.


+1
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Postby Dave39 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:10 pm

I think the most important question hasn't been answered yet: have Introversion announced what the release price will be (I guess they don't know yet)? I can't imagine it being $30 at release, surely that'd be commercial suicide for a game the general public will perceive as "indie"? (and before anyone has an aneurysm; yes I've paid for the alpha and more, but I still think $30 will be too expensive if that's the price come release)




Also...
Illanair wrote:In that case they'd be incredibly busy taking down tens of thousands kickstarter project contributers. And I know of at least 20 etailers that allow Paypal for Pre-Orders. I think you need to back up that argument with sources - I can't find anything on the subject suggesting it is against their Terms.


Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?
PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis, only if the seller guarantees delivery within 20 days from the date of purchase and clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale. PayPal may apply additional conditions, such as proof of the seller's ability to successfully deliver the product: supplier information, purchase invoices, postal information or proof of delivery.
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Postby Illanair » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:54 pm

Ah hah - finally something substancial. Thanks Dave (It is still perfectly possible to make deals with Paypal on the subject of longer "waiting" periods)
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Postby sumodaz » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:18 pm

The way i see it if we want cool games we have to support the studios making them. I'm just so happy to see this genre making a comeback so i am happy to throw money their way. £20... whats that a couple of visits to the cinema? a night out in the pub? or a meal in a restaurant? its not much really when you consider the hours of entertainment you'll get from the game.
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Postby City Builder » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:35 am

I think this whole topic is now pointless.

Let's look at the facts...
1. They've already started selling the alpha/game at a minimum of $30.00
1a. That means it's not going to change, so why even bother talking about it other than to let people know, either yay, it was worth it to me, or Nay, it is too high priced to me.

2. Since they've already and just started selling it at said price, nothing said in this topic or any other topic for that matter is going to change that with out totally pissing off existing customers that bought in at $30.00 since they'd be super mad that the price was lowered after they bought in at 30.00
Sure maybe they could offer a sale price somewhere down the line or when the whole min/$30.00 customer base has run out and they're still looking to get more investment money but it's not going to change anytime soon.

Non facts
Yes, I agree with the poster on the last page or two that says something along the lines that the developers really should have just said "We believe our game is or will be worth the $30.00 price tag" instead of trying to play it off as they think they'll get a better community in the alpha by charging $30.00, it's a load of bunk and many other indie developers who are selling their games between $9.99 and $19.99 have proved it over and over again. Call a dollar a dollar, call a cow a cow, and just say it, "we think our game is worth $30.00" instead of the PR speak you tried to pull off that is so thinly veiled that everybody with an objective mind can see right through.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not worth $30, that is up to each user. To me I'll have to wait and see if they really do something extrodinary with the game as they continue to develop it before I'll give them $30.00 for it. Theres a lot of excellent games that can be bought at that price point, both from big developer/publishers as well as indies, and I want to see them continue to develop this game and make it stand out further and further from games lik Prison Tycoon 1 thru 4 etc.
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Postby mik3k » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:20 am

Alright then, looks like we are playing nice (or nicer).

I will just leave this here - http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2 ... ivate-jets

So this doesn't get twisted into an EA thing - This article talks about how in the 'olden' days a dev only got 20% of a game until the dev costs were covered and then $7 per copy if the game continued to sell for $60. Nowadays that same dev can avoid the publisher and sell a game for $9.99 and still pocket $7 per copy. Does Introversion really need to make $30 per copy of a game to stay in business and turn a profit? That is a great price for a AAA game with hundreds of people on the payroll and $$ millions in dev costs.

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My concern is not for myself but for the gamers out there that cannot have a taste of this game legally and how crappy some people here want to treat gamers that cannot afford $30 for an alpha of a game. It could very well be the dad with 2 kids and a wife who saves up for something nice once a month and has to choose between this game or a finished game on steam (or a nice dinner for his wife). It could be another country where their wages do not match the UK, Australia, or the US.

We have plenty of examples of very, very successful games at much lower price points (Minecraft, Terraria, The Binding of Isaac, and on and on). Even devs like the guy that made Binding of Isaac said something along the lines of he wants everyone to play his game no matter how they obtain it (or it could have been the dev from Super Meat Boy). I think (just giving feedback) that the devs have overpriced their product. Maybe not 4-5 years ago when you just paid the price of entry, but now that the market is so saturated with games and the pricing of the majority of games compared to this one.

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As far as Dwarf Fortress and the length of development. Dwarf Fortress is 1000x deeper than even the mighty Minecraft let alone Prison Architect or Terraria. I've read that it may be one of the most advanced pieces of software on the planet - not for it's ascii graphics of course but for the multitude of systems running under the hood.

Toady - "Tarn applied to 17 Ph.D. programs, got into 15 and, wavering briefly between M.I.T. and Stanford, chose the latter. He earned his doctorate in 2005 with a dissertation called “Flat Chains in Banach Spaces,” - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magaz ... d=all&_r=0

So lets not compare Prison Architect to Dwarf Fortress because there is zero comparison to make as far as game vs game. The only comparison I made was the pricing. I don't expect Introversion to live off of donations, but I think they are pricing a whole bunch of people out of their game and in fact may end up with less money overall than if they offered it at a lower price point. The only reasoning behind the $30 price that I could find was to limit the alpha to more involved people willing to report bugs and work with the devs, but again that falls on deaf ears when thousands of people have bought the alpha and there is no limit that I can see to keep the number of people in the alpha to a manageable size.

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Finally, I really like the game so far. If the full product is something I think is worth the price and something I really enjoy, I will buy multiple copies to share with friends and family. I am the devs best friend where it counts - in the wallet. Just price it so millions of people can enjoy this game and build a huge fanbase for Introversion's future games instead of a few thousand people with more disposable income.

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