Multiple floors?

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Harle
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Multiple floors?

Postby Harle » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:25 am

Something I've noticed in the handful of videos and screencaps I've seen of the game, is that everything in the game appears to take place on the ground level. There's never a depiction of multiple floors, or basements.

Is that something that is planned? In my mind what I really want out of this game is the ability to build (eventually) large self-contained prison structures, rather than a complex of outbuildings as typically shown in videos, and multiple floors help a great deal with this kind of thing. Not to mention that vertical design is easily one of the more satisfying aspects of these kinds of building games; there is something very rewarding about building upwards rather than out, and it introduces an elegance of design.

Something else; I haven't seen windows playing a part in the game. I suppose it might be a little abstract, but sunlight can have an impact on a prisoner's psyche, and a 'room with a view' would combine a mixed bag of improving well-being while posing an additional risk for tampering/escape. Spending too much time out of sunlight might have negative impacts on prisoners' moods, and this could be counteracted with strategically placed windows, whether in the cells or across from them, or in eating areas, etcetera. (I just like placing windows, so sue me)
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Postby shinygerbil » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:26 pm

I haven't seen any cows or glaciers; does that mean we can assume that cows and glaciers are not included?

On a serious note, well, we'll see. Multiple floors probably don't show very well on a screenshot. Neither do windows, I would suspect, but Introversion being Introversion, I'm sure they haven't forgotten about windows.
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Postby Harle » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:34 am

There's hardly any need to be patronizing. ;) I realize it sounds like an incredibly banal question, but honestly it was a suspicion in the guise of a question for the sake of politeness.

Generally speaking, building/management games with multiple 'layers' have that function built into the UI. There are no UI elements that suggest there are multiple floors. There also aren't any stairs either in the demos/screenshots or in the limited menus we have seen. If the game as it is featured multiple floors I suspect we would have seen some indication of that by now. This by no means says for a certainty that there aren't multiple floors, but it's a pretty good indication that there aren't. Yet. I want to know if this is in the works.

These kinds of games (with multiple floors) also tend to make use of isometric tilesets, because flat tilesets don't really stack graphically very well; you can't easily get a pseudo-three-dimensional view of the structure unless you have some degree of perspective offset. That doesn't mean that Introversion isn't planning to have multiple floors. But it does suggest that it wasn't an initial priority and also suggests that the feature isn't in the game now.

So. In all seriousness. Just because you've never seen a penguin fly doesn't mean it can't fly. Right? Absence of experience isn't the only issue here. The guys were talking about opening up paid alpha/beta testing in the not-too-distant feature. If multiple floors aren't in the game now, I think it's worth asking whether or not it's in the plans.
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Postby zangdar86 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:33 pm

Lot of people here are patronizing !

In all seriousness, I think it is a very good question, and as you said, if it s not yet implanted, I think It could be very interresting in gameplay. Imagine DF like it was at the beginning with only one level of ground and the possibilieties that have been unlocked with multiple floor.

But like Judas said, if there is no multiple floor on screens or video so I don t believe in it :)
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Postby Jordy... » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:17 pm

I think mark talked in a podcast about multiple layers and dungeons? Or do I mix things up?
Cuz fuck logic
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Postby MikeTheWookiee » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:02 pm

I think you'll find penguins can fly. :wink:

Multiple floors would be a difficult thing to show on-screen properly, and still allow you to sweep an eye over your prison at a glance. You could do it with layers of tabs or something, but imo that would be a poor UI decision, as you can't see it all at once. It's not impossible, but would be very difficult to get right.

Also in the in-universe view, from the screens we've seen so far there seems to be a desert background, i.e. loads of space, and likely not much strength there to take foundations. Therefore in the world of cheapness which prisons find themselves, you can have as much land as you like for pennies, and it costs lots of money to make buildings go upwards due to the large foundations / piling required. It's also far faster (i.e. cheaper) to do one level. Therefore everything is single-storey, with the possible exception of guard towers, water towers, comms towers, etc. Seriously, the only reasons buildings ever go upwards are lack / expense of space, or good old-fashioned dick-waving. Of course there are exceptions, but in the main these two count for almost all buildings.
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Postby shinygerbil » Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:16 pm

Heh, there was meant to be a winky smile in my post. I didn't intend to be patronising. I still say "we'll see", though I have to agree that it doesn't look hugely likely as yet on the multiple floors thing.

As for windows - PA seems to have this psychological angle going on already, and given that we hear a lot about the prisoner's moods I'm sure the quality of their cell/living conditions is already a part of the game, and I would imagine that lighting conditions would be a relatively simple thing to add if they're not a part of the equation already.
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Postby koshensky » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:31 pm

I can see PA getting awkwardly complicated incredibly quickly. Even the demo-play they were showing in their recent talk looked like it could easily get out of hand if someone started getting a bit rowdy. Adding multiple floors into the equation would make it nearly impossible to manage without half of your prison burning down every other day.

Equally, I seem to remember Chris comparing PA to the old-school Bullfrog games 10-15 years ago. They were only ever single-story and worked perfectly.

Maybe we just pretend that our prison is like that of Gallipoli, as opposed to Alcatraz?
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Postby Harle » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:18 pm

It's not like games of this nature have never been done with multiple floors. =P

It's not exactly the world's most difficult problem. Any decent UI should be giving you vital information without the need to actually have your camera on the place of interest. I mean you say that multiple floors would make it harder to find stuff, but it's not really any different from spreading it out on a single plane; you still need to pan around to see things that aren't on your screen. If anything I find it easier to just flick the mouse wheel to travel between floors.

Also, auto-focusing the camera on important events, or notifications that pop up that let you click on them to auto-focus on the event, are just two ways that games have been tackling this kind of issue for over a decade.

But I will say this; regardless of excuses and explanations, if this game ships without multiple floors, I hate to say it but I don't think I'll be terribly interested. To me, although the prison psychology thing does interest me, the major draw (for me) of these kinds of games is constructing interesting and complex interior spaces. And building on just the one layer just doesn't really scratch that itch. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
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Postby dsiOne » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:39 am

DF 'solved' multiple floors pretty well.
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Re: Multiple floors?

Postby laminutederire » Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:29 am

Hey!
I tend to agree that multiple floors is a good idea. The reason people have built upwards is because it is more efficient, and because you can have plenty of spaces, you're always going to miss some.
In addition, when your prison is very large, you cannot see everything, this is why it is not uncalled for to add some height to buildings.
Besides, some argue that it is realistic because prison are cheaply build, in what country are you living in? Prison have always been expensive, and this is why there is no cost restriction for building upwards!
Finally, it could lead to some interesting stuff, and would add some security to your prison, while letting everyone imagination express themselves.
this is the only thing that lacks so far on my opinion
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Re: Multiple floors?

Postby c1in70n » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:27 am

This is a great idea.
Ive never seen a single story Prison either, so in effort of realism, and conveinence it would appeal to me.
The Sims style multiple floor for instance is a good place to look.
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Re: Multiple floors?

Postby xander » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:12 am

Oh. My. Jeebus.

It isn't going to happen. Seriously. Enough already.

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Re: Multiple floors?

Postby laminutederire » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:09 am

Chill man!
The purpose of this forum is to provide feedback, if some feel the need to express they want that feature, let them do, and developers will decide about the importance of the feature, and even if it is not for this particular game, it can be done in the next game they'll make. Anyway, do not start censoring people for such ridiculous things!
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Re: Multiple floors?

Postby MMZ>Torak » Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm

1) Steam Sale
2) Repeated requests for the same features that have been talked to death
3) ???
4) Profit?

Honestly, a little search goes a long way. :wink:

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