I'm planning to start creation (and try to finish) my first mod Friend or Foe? tomorrow. (I could only use a computer when I'm at school - I'm using my phone right now.)
since it will be at school, and I'm pretty sure that introversion forums is blocked there, I'll have to provide updates through my blog, here.
I was wondering if anyone would provide any helpful tips or advice before I began.
tes
Friend or Foe?
Moderators: jelco, bert_the_turtle
Friend or Foe?
Last edited by Testrie on Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:13 am, edited 5 times in total.
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nihilesthetics2
- level2
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:18 pm
Dont be tempted to dive straight in creating your levels from the ground up. If you plonk a few landscapes, add some spawn points and a safe area then move them about until the level just kind of works, then you might make an OK mod, but it wont be a spectacular mod. The reason this is tempting is because the modding system makes this kind of thing really easy.
Instead, you will want to do is to put down the concept of the level on paper first - but dont be tempted to go into too much detail yet. Think about how the level will fit into your story. Dont think about new models, graphics or anything like that yet, and only define your map roughly.
Next, break your concept down into distinct gameplay elements. The gamplay elements are what will make your mod fun to play. One common gameplay element used in mods so far is fishing - using a friendly unit to lure enemies. Different units can be used to different effect - you can clear a path for other units, or lure enemies into range of turrets or friendly units. Other gameplay elements to think of are mazes, enemy turrets that can only be overwhelmed coming from two directions, DGs protected by friendly virii, timelimits, hidden bonuses, etc. Sometimes the player needs to lose something to gain - for example sacrificing several turrets may thin the enemy out enough for the player to launch an attack at a certain place. It is a good idea to fit several gamplay elements into each level. These can be sequential, but if you can get several gameplay elements going at the same time, you are really starting to get somewhere. Try to avoid simplistic gameplay elements such as overwhelming the enemy with squads or onslaught maps - unless you can apply some kind of coll spin to them. Other gameplay elements are your objectives and how your buildings status come into play. Try to think of a level in terms of these gameplay elements because thats what they actually are.
You should now start testing these gameplay concepts in test levels. This can take a bit of time to get working. Get a simple map with plenty of land, put down some buildings, walls units, etc and test each gamplay element, refining it as you see what the modding system will let you do. Test different configurations and starting conditions. This will not only test your gameplay elements, but you will start to get a feel for what works and what doesnt.
Now is the time to start your maps. Start with rough maps and basic lights, then get your gameplay elements in place. When you have got them working, add detail to your maps. Start changing the lights, palettes and landscapes. As you make changes, test your gameplay elements to ensure they still work. Now is the point where you add the gravy - not everything you put in your level has to be functional. You can add islands and units that dont ever come into the game, but are there to add depth - if its a forest level, add some islands with trees - if the level has a factory, add some mining tracks. You get the idea. We are probably a couple of months down the line, now, but you can start to think about any new models, sounds, graphics, cutscenes,etc.
... and a pearl of wisdom Trickfred suggested to me -
"Make a list of things you have to do"
Anyway, thats how I would do it
.
N2
I cant get my signature to work, so :
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Look into my eyes. Look into my eyes. The eyes. The eyes. Not around the eyes. Don't look around my eyes. Look into my eyes... You're under.
You will release a Dev Cd for Darwinia.
You're back in the room."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instead, you will want to do is to put down the concept of the level on paper first - but dont be tempted to go into too much detail yet. Think about how the level will fit into your story. Dont think about new models, graphics or anything like that yet, and only define your map roughly.
Next, break your concept down into distinct gameplay elements. The gamplay elements are what will make your mod fun to play. One common gameplay element used in mods so far is fishing - using a friendly unit to lure enemies. Different units can be used to different effect - you can clear a path for other units, or lure enemies into range of turrets or friendly units. Other gameplay elements to think of are mazes, enemy turrets that can only be overwhelmed coming from two directions, DGs protected by friendly virii, timelimits, hidden bonuses, etc. Sometimes the player needs to lose something to gain - for example sacrificing several turrets may thin the enemy out enough for the player to launch an attack at a certain place. It is a good idea to fit several gamplay elements into each level. These can be sequential, but if you can get several gameplay elements going at the same time, you are really starting to get somewhere. Try to avoid simplistic gameplay elements such as overwhelming the enemy with squads or onslaught maps - unless you can apply some kind of coll spin to them. Other gameplay elements are your objectives and how your buildings status come into play. Try to think of a level in terms of these gameplay elements because thats what they actually are.
You should now start testing these gameplay concepts in test levels. This can take a bit of time to get working. Get a simple map with plenty of land, put down some buildings, walls units, etc and test each gamplay element, refining it as you see what the modding system will let you do. Test different configurations and starting conditions. This will not only test your gameplay elements, but you will start to get a feel for what works and what doesnt.
Now is the time to start your maps. Start with rough maps and basic lights, then get your gameplay elements in place. When you have got them working, add detail to your maps. Start changing the lights, palettes and landscapes. As you make changes, test your gameplay elements to ensure they still work. Now is the point where you add the gravy - not everything you put in your level has to be functional. You can add islands and units that dont ever come into the game, but are there to add depth - if its a forest level, add some islands with trees - if the level has a factory, add some mining tracks. You get the idea. We are probably a couple of months down the line, now, but you can start to think about any new models, sounds, graphics, cutscenes,etc.
... and a pearl of wisdom Trickfred suggested to me -
"Make a list of things you have to do"
Anyway, thats how I would do it
.
N2
I cant get my signature to work, so :
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Look into my eyes. Look into my eyes. The eyes. The eyes. Not around the eyes. Don't look around my eyes. Look into my eyes... You're under.
You will release a Dev Cd for Darwinia.
You're back in the room."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instead, you will want to do is to put down the concept of the level on paper first - but dont be tempted to go into too much detail yet.
you should see my notebook :p
it started out as a way to put down ideas at home (im grounded :p) its turned into a 7 page description of my intro level.
thanks for the advice. now I'm really going to have to come up with an excuse to get around that no gaming rule...
tes
just wondering... is there a way to make units that won't vanish?
nihilesthetics2 wrote:--==<snip>==--
A couple of years ago, I saw Kurt Vonnegut Jr. speak. He talked about two kinds of writers -- those that lay all of their groundwork in one fell swoop, then go through several passes of revising, each pass improving upon the last, until the work is perfect; and those that work one sentence at a time, perfecting each sentence as they go, until the work is complete.
The advice you give above is really good advice, and I would not say anything to subtract from it. It is really good advice. However, I think that it is very much directed at the first kind of person, rather than the second kind of person. As I fit into the second category more than the first, here is what I did in Insurrection.
In my own mod, I came up with a very simple idea -- the Darwinians are rebelling against Dr. S, and you are supposed to help them. With that idea, I created a level. I build up a landscape to look like what I wanted it to look like, put all of the buildings on it, added what decoration I wanted, added units, scripted it, then played it for the first time. I then went back and tried to fix the things that didn't work. I finished that level, and made it playable, before I even thought about the next couple of levels. By the time I had finished that level, I had ideas for the next several levels, which I implemented in much the same way. I found that the gameplay elements that I wanted grew organically from the levels that I created, and the aesthetic context into which they were placed.
While I have heard many modders suggest that you should plan the entire mod from the beginning (i.e. TGF, trickfred, Nihil), that would never work for me. I planned each level out, but not the mod as a whole. I tried to perfect each level in isolation, then tied it into the main mod when it was complete. Granted, this is not a perfect approach either, as I and others found many, many bugs that were caused by the levels being so disjoint in creation. However, I could not have done it any other way.
That being said, it is really all up to your own personal style. It sounds like you are the planner that lays everything out first, then builds it up one layer at a time, so all of this may prove useless to you, but do keep it in mind -- there is no one right way to make a mod, or create any other kind of artistic work.
nihilesthetics2 wrote:I cant get my signature to work, so :
That is because signatures have been intentionally disabled on the Darwinia, IV, and Defcon forums. Avatars have been disabled on the Uplink forum, but not sigs.
xander
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trickfred
- level5
- Posts: 1691
- Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:01 am
- Location: The Great White North, Eh?
- Contact:
xander wrote:While I have heard many modders suggest that you should plan the entire mod from the beginning (i.e. TGF, trickfred, Nihil), that would never work for me. I planned each level out, but not the mod as a whole. I tried to perfect each level in isolation, then tied it into the main mod when it was complete. Granted, this is not a perfect approach either, as I and others found many, many bugs that were caused by the levels being so disjoint in creation. However, I could not have done it any other way.
I started out modding that way, with EW1 (and a few mods that were mothballed before anyone other than me saw them, now gone forever in the infamous 'Hard Drive Crash of 2005'). I had a general plot idea, and made it happen level by level, tweaking and adding to it as I went.
EW2 was more or less the same, though I had a few specific level ideas and plot ideas I wanted to use (just wasn't sure where to stick them), so I ended up making a very informal checklist marking these ideas so I wouldn't forget them.
EW3 was planned from the beginning, because I knew I wanted it to be more complex than would be possible to do seat of the pants. It required a lot of pre-planning, because so many of the levels are interconnected - and as xander pointed out, bugs can crop up when complicated levels aren't designed to interoperate from the get-go (or even IF you plan - I STILL had a bunch of silly ones on public release.
).
I suppose my point is that the method of plannign required is proportionate to the complexity of the mod. If all your levels are going to be self contained, with no/limited back and forth (ie - the original game levels), then go ahead and do them one at a time. If you plan on making your mod similar to a 'Choose Your Own Adventure' book (for example - having some insignificant-seeming choice you make in the second level affect your plan-of-attack options in the last level, secret levels, levels only accessible if you made a certain choice in a previous level, etc), then I suggest you not only make a list of what you want to accomplish, but bust out a flowcharting template.
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The GoldFish
- level5
- Posts: 3961
- Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 9:01 pm
- Location: Bowl / South UK
- Contact:
xander wrote:While I have heard many modders suggest that you should plan the entire mod from the beginning (i.e. TGF, trickfred, Nihil)
I don't remember saying that! I don't believe that any good mod could be really planned in advance because of the way that almost all of the events and such like which occur are directly linked with what you realise you're actually able to make happen with the limited latticework that is Darwinia.
I tend to use Xanders method. I plan my levels a bit in advance, but I don't know exactally how I'm going to make my level look or act until I actually make it. Then I spend a bit of time improving on what I've already done. I'm well into my first mod, but I still go back and improve all the levels I've done so far when I get new ideas.
The GoldFish wrote:xander wrote:While I have heard many modders suggest that you should plan the entire mod from the beginning (i.e. TGF, trickfred, Nihil)
I don't remember saying that! I don't believe that any good mod could be really planned in advance because of the way that almost all of the events and such like which occur are directly linked with what you realise you're actually able to make happen with the limited latticework that is Darwinia.
I take it back. TGF never said that. Sorry.
xander
AI targets do work with greens, but only if there is a green AI unit in the level (I've used it on some mods, can't remember which but I know it's coming for FTP a lot) - however don't forget to only have one AI unit of each type.
GENERATION 22:The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
Testrie wrote:martin wrote:AI targets do work with greens, but only if there is a green AI unit in the level (I've used it on some mods, can't remember which but I know it's coming for FTP a lot) - however don't forget to only have one AI unit of each type.
But should the AI targets be green or red?
elyea
Doesn't matter.
xander
I have a new problem now...
EDIT: that blackbox wasn't generated by the error.
Basically, I click on my map, it fades to black, then CRASH. (normal darwinia needs to close message)
I go into the map editor and edit buildings: it freezes for about half a second, then crashes.
any advice?
elyea
edit: oh wait, did I actually try to link a pylon to the yard? X_X
EDIT: that blackbox wasn't generated by the error.
Basically, I click on my map, it fades to black, then CRASH. (normal darwinia needs to close message)
I go into the map editor and edit buildings: it freezes for about half a second, then crashes.
Code: Select all
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Buildings_EndDefinitionany advice?
elyea
edit: oh wait, did I actually try to link a pylon to the yard? X_X
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