stick that in your pipe and smoke it - lol.
i think icepick may have skipped too much text and not really "got it".
Insurrection 1.1.7
Moderators: jelco, bert_the_turtle
Yeah, most of my criticism is literary, I played the mod with AAA (which might explain how I missed the changing of sides at Annihilation), and from what I've read, most of the bugs don't effect that profile.
Ok, so I just read through the PDF, which I missed before (I just extracted the mod, I didnt check what was in it).
Even assuming that everything Greenbrae says it a complete lie trying to paint Dr Sepulveda as some kind of tyranical monster, there are still several major issues I have with some things.
The fact that you say that Dr Sepulveda is using the virus to protect Darwinia is insane. The virus nearly destroyed all of Darwinia, and Dr. Sepulveda would never take the risk of intentionally putting any form on the virus back onto the system thats been his life for the last decade. The entire prospect of it is simply too risky, and completely contradictory to the Dr.'s established character.
The backstory in the PDF file says that the Dr. said that the virus attack on Darwinia was the result of hackers. Even assuming he would divulge any information about the incident to the public, I don't think that he would lie about it like that. If anything, the truth would show how far the Darwinians have come in terms of evolutionary progress. I'm not sure how well the information about investors fits either, given that all of Darwinia runs off of ancient hardware. Dr. Sepulveda wouldn't have any NEED for investors, especially given that any investors would gain some kind of control over his lifes work, and as a result, the Darwinians themselves.
Another part of the PDF says that Dr. Sepulveda found out about Darwinians exploring the internet, and implementing a firewall to stop them. This totally contradicts the story established by Introversion in the second demo of the game. I'm not sure if the demo is available for the mac yet so I won't hold that against you, but in the demo, Dr. Sepulveda is right there the first time the Darwinians launch themselves onto the Internet, and is very supportive of their attempts. Saying that he found out after it had been happening and took measures to stop it is a direct contradiction to what has been Officially established.
Ultimately, I can't stop you from altering the basics of Dr Sepulveda's personality, but I would certainly recommend against it.
As for the short laser range issue. On the second island, there are at least 3 groups of red Darwinians directly in the way. I'm not sure how the Darwinian's would have reacted on the older versions, but in the latest version, trying to make them run through 3 groups of enemies is just going to make them hover around getting shot at. You'd never be able to get enough through alive. Using the first group at the start of the level as a basis, by the time I got my Darwinians through to the first objective building, I had less than 50 of them left alive. If the player has to get their Darwinian's through 3 such groups, Im not sure they're going to have very many left.
Ok, so I just read through the PDF, which I missed before (I just extracted the mod, I didnt check what was in it).
Even assuming that everything Greenbrae says it a complete lie trying to paint Dr Sepulveda as some kind of tyranical monster, there are still several major issues I have with some things.
The fact that you say that Dr Sepulveda is using the virus to protect Darwinia is insane. The virus nearly destroyed all of Darwinia, and Dr. Sepulveda would never take the risk of intentionally putting any form on the virus back onto the system thats been his life for the last decade. The entire prospect of it is simply too risky, and completely contradictory to the Dr.'s established character.
The backstory in the PDF file says that the Dr. said that the virus attack on Darwinia was the result of hackers. Even assuming he would divulge any information about the incident to the public, I don't think that he would lie about it like that. If anything, the truth would show how far the Darwinians have come in terms of evolutionary progress. I'm not sure how well the information about investors fits either, given that all of Darwinia runs off of ancient hardware. Dr. Sepulveda wouldn't have any NEED for investors, especially given that any investors would gain some kind of control over his lifes work, and as a result, the Darwinians themselves.
Another part of the PDF says that Dr. Sepulveda found out about Darwinians exploring the internet, and implementing a firewall to stop them. This totally contradicts the story established by Introversion in the second demo of the game. I'm not sure if the demo is available for the mac yet so I won't hold that against you, but in the demo, Dr. Sepulveda is right there the first time the Darwinians launch themselves onto the Internet, and is very supportive of their attempts. Saying that he found out after it had been happening and took measures to stop it is a direct contradiction to what has been Officially established.
Ultimately, I can't stop you from altering the basics of Dr Sepulveda's personality, but I would certainly recommend against it.
As for the short laser range issue. On the second island, there are at least 3 groups of red Darwinians directly in the way. I'm not sure how the Darwinian's would have reacted on the older versions, but in the latest version, trying to make them run through 3 groups of enemies is just going to make them hover around getting shot at. You'd never be able to get enough through alive. Using the first group at the start of the level as a basis, by the time I got my Darwinians through to the first objective building, I had less than 50 of them left alive. If the player has to get their Darwinian's through 3 such groups, Im not sure they're going to have very many left.
Icepick wrote:The fact that you say that Dr Sepulveda is using the virus to protect Darwinia is insane. The virus nearly destroyed all of Darwinia, and Dr. Sepulveda would never take the risk of intentionally putting any form on the virus back onto the system thats been his life for the last decade. The entire prospect of it is simply too risky, and completely contradictory to the Dr.'s established character.
I am not sure that I agree with you on that one. Smallpox was a terrible illness, yet the vaccine for it is based upon the virus itself. Snake bites can be very dangerous, but most of the anit-venoms are made from the venom. If Dr. Sepulveda wanted to protect Darwinia from future viral attacks, I think it is logical that he might try using the virus.
Obviously, we have a difference of opinion about what Dr. Sepulveda would do. I am inclined to think that it is a logical way of explaning the presence of the virus in the mod, and I do not believe that it is outside the realm of possibility for Sepulveda. In fact, I make it clear later on that he recognized the threat of turning the virus loose in Darwinia, and took measures to prevent that from happening.
Icepick wrote:The backstory in the PDF file says that the Dr. said that the virus attack on Darwinia was the result of hackers. Even assuming he would divulge any information about the incident to the public, I don't think that he would lie about it like that. If anything, the truth would show how far the Darwinians have come in terms of evolutionary progress. I'm not sure how well the information about investors fits either, given that all of Darwinia runs off of ancient hardware. Dr. Sepulveda wouldn't have any NEED for investors, especially given that any investors would gain some kind of control over his lifes work, and as a result, the Darwinians themselves.
Indeed, I did take some liberties there, though I think they fit with the character. Dr. Sepulveda is very secretive, and the manual and other information provided by IV indicates that he is rather arrogant and ego-maniacal. As such, if he reported anything, then it would probably not be that he screwed up.
Now, like you, I assume that he would report nothing, which is where I believe I have taken the most liberties. I have assumed that there are stock holders that have to be told something. I think this is justifiable, as well... Certainly, the machines are old, but Dr. S needs to get money to maintain them from somewhere. Also, he has been getting a lot of press with Darwinia, and I assume that there must be some kind of body behind that. So, I took the liberty of adding stock holders. This is something that is never alluded to, one way or the other, in the original game or game materials, and gives Sepulveda motivation to 1) go public and 2) make up a story (both to cover his own mistake, and to prevent him from being booted off of his own project).
Also, I would point out that much of the game material referes to Darwinia as a kind of theme park that people can visit. Much of the press material was in the form of advertisements for this theme park. Then, one day, it shuts down. Dr. Sepulveda needs to explain that.
At any rate, I recognize that I took a couple of liberties, but none of them seem entirely out of character.
Icepick wrote:Another part of the PDF says that Dr. Sepulveda found out about Darwinians exploring the internet, and implementing a firewall to stop them. This totally contradicts the story established by Introversion in the second demo of the game. I'm not sure if the demo is available for the mac yet so I won't hold that against you, but in the demo, Dr. Sepulveda is right there the first time the Darwinians launch themselves onto the Internet, and is very supportive of their attempts. Saying that he found out after it had been happening and took measures to stop it is a direct contradiction to what has been Officially established.
It is in direct contradiction of what has been Officially established. It turns out, later on, that it is something of a misrepresentation by Greenbrae. Remember, where you get your information is almost as important as what that information is.
However, as you say, I have not played the demo. I tried to make this mod fit with my understanding of what happens in the demo, but, not being able to play it, a couple things may be a bit off. I have left room to correct those problems when we finally get 1.3 for the Mac.
On a related issue, perhaps someone could send me strings_default.txt (or english.txt -- whichever it is) from the new demo? That might help clear up some of these issues.
Icepick wrote:Ultimately, I can't stop you from altering the basics of Dr Sepulveda's personality, but I would certainly recommend against it.
As I said above, in a much more verbose fashion, I do not believe that I am altering Sepulveda in a basic or fundamental manner. I am, perhaps, manipulating his environment a bit, and exagerating certain characteristics a bit. However, I do not think that I am doing either in a way that directly contradicts anything that is in the canon. Again, we seem to have a difference of opinion about that.
Icepick wrote:As for the short laser range issue. On the second island, there are at least 3 groups of red Darwinians directly in the way. I'm not sure how the Darwinian's would have reacted on the older versions, but in the latest version, trying to make them run through 3 groups of enemies is just going to make them hover around getting shot at. You'd never be able to get enough through alive. Using the first group at the start of the level as a basis, by the time I got my Darwinians through to the first objective building, I had less than 50 of them left alive. If the player has to get their Darwinian's through 3 such groups, Im not sure they're going to have very many left.
Perhaps it is a version issue. My strategy is as follows:
First -- the second island (with the trunkport) is "north" of the first island. The trunkport on that island is due west of the incubator and radar dish there. That should help orient you to the directions below.
At the beginning of the level, create an officer and issue the follow command. The DGs will clump around him. Then, lead them around the south of the first island. By going around the small mountain there, you can avoid all but a few of the red DGs. If you come up over the mountain, you avoid most of the red DGs, and have the advantage of height (enemy 'nades fall back on them, green 'nades fall toward the enemy). From there, capturing the terminal is not a big deal.
Once I get an engineer, I reprogram the control tower, and lead the DGs to the radar dish by the northernmost possible route -- hugging the coast. Once the are all on the second island, I cluster all of the DGs near the incubator, using the follow command. I then send an engineer off to grab any souls that my have fallen.
Now, here is the tricky part, and the part that may not work with the AI in 1.3... would someone please tell me? On my computer, the when DGs fight, they take a shot, then run until they can shoot again. They will run from any enemy unit, including the harmless and invincible (as far as they are concerned) engineer. So, I use an engineer to scare the red DGs back (generally down the slopes of the island), then lead my DGs along the spine of the island. The have the advantage of high ground, and there are very few red DGs taking shots at them. This will usually take me to the base of the mountain on the southwest coast of the island.
From there, the officer is like a sherpa leading the DGs across the mountians, and down to the SafeArea in the valley.
This, by the way, is not the only way in which I have done the level. When I made the level, I realized that it might be kind of frustrating. I initially had fewer green DGs to start, and a lot more red ones. The theory was that if you were very careful, you could kill a few red DGs, recycle the souls, and at least break even. I found that this was doable, but tedious. So, I added more greens and took out a bunch of reds. Even then, the strategy outlined above works -- I have finished Rebellion with almost 200 Darwinians in its current configuration. So, unless someone can show me that the AI is behaving in a quantifiably different manner, and that this difference makes the level impossible, I am not going to change it. Given that at least a couple of people have made it through the level, I am disinclined to change it very much.
All of that being said, my goal was to make the mod somewhat more difficult than the original scenerio, and to experiment with different kinds of level goals. Also, I want to frustrate players a bit, and play a bit with the preconcieved notions of how Darwinia ought to be played. In most of the original levels, you can wipe out all of the enemy (squads are great for this). That is really not possible in Rebellion or Database. It is meant to be a challenge, and, as I said, I have no trouble with it.
xander
xander wrote:As to TGF's comment about noisy ground in Rebellion, it was designed to frustrate the user.
well you succeeded there, quite possibly the most annoying level ever.
i haven't seen any of the other levels because after one of my own grenades wipes out half my darwinians i can't stop myself from instantly pressing alt-f4.
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The GoldFish
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Yeah I led my DGs behind the mountain because I took one look at them and the red groups and said 'no chance'.
Then they threw grenades into the mountain side because of the 2nd red group. The benefit of being on the edge of the land, between a group of red DGs and the sea, meant there was, really, nowhere for them to run.
Boom
To me, it's better to frustrate the user through their own inability, rather than present something that they have no control of, ie, DGs throwing grenades, so they're effectively playing potluck even if they're trying to avoid the enemy. This is why Retribution in Stricken annoys me so much, stupid centipede code >:(
Hence why terrain with less noise, or maybe new Darwinian grenade code that checks they're not on a steep slope before hand, would be a popular change with me.
Then they threw grenades into the mountain side because of the 2nd red group. The benefit of being on the edge of the land, between a group of red DGs and the sea, meant there was, really, nowhere for them to run.
Boom
To me, it's better to frustrate the user through their own inability, rather than present something that they have no control of, ie, DGs throwing grenades, so they're effectively playing potluck even if they're trying to avoid the enemy. This is why Retribution in Stricken annoys me so much, stupid centipede code >:(
Hence why terrain with less noise, or maybe new Darwinian grenade code that checks they're not on a steep slope before hand, would be a popular change with me.
The GoldFish wrote:Yeah I led my DGs behind the mountain because I took one look at them and the red groups and said 'no chance'.
Then they threw grenades into the mountain side because of the 2nd red group. The benefit of being on the edge of the land, between a group of red DGs and the sea, meant there was, really, nowhere for them to run.
Boom
To me, it's better to frustrate the user through their own inability, rather than present something that they have no control of, ie, DGs throwing grenades, so they're effectively playing potluck even if they're trying to avoid the enemy. This is why Retribution in Stricken annoys me so much, stupid centipede code >:(
Hence why terrain with less noise, or maybe new Darwinian grenade code that checks they're not on a steep slope before hand, would be a popular change with me.
Hrm... it sounds like the AI is behaving very differently. I will reduce the number of red DGs, and see if that has a positive effect. I may smooth the terrain a bit, as well... let me think on that one for a while. Or perhaps I will just take the 'nades away. Originally, I had them at level 3, but the enemy DGs have 'nades, no matter what is done. I didn't want to leave the player disadvantaged, so I gave them level 4 DGs as well. Perhaps it is more of a disadvantage that I thought. At any rate, when I get home in an hour or two, I will upload a new version.
xander
Ok, I suppose I can agree with most of those points, although I'm still not convinced about Dr Sepulveda using the virus. If there was a human equivalent of Norton Anti-Virus (or whatever), the need for using an altered version of small-pox wouldn't be nessecery - there would be no risk of anyone ever getting infected with it. I would have imagined that steps would have been taken to prevent any new viruses taking hold over Darwinia.
Incidently, a percentage of the people treated with the smallpox vacine get sick from it (pretty low mind you, 1 in 500,000 i think), but still, given the rate that the virus overtook Darwinia the first time, I doubt thats a gamble the good doctor will be willing to make.
As for the short range laser thing, if you say that the level is doable, then I guess it's your choice. Although I'm not sure that making something to intentionally frustrate the player is the best way to go about things, I certainly wouldn't play it for very long if it was designed specifically to piss me off. Just a thought
Incidently, a percentage of the people treated with the smallpox vacine get sick from it (pretty low mind you, 1 in 500,000 i think), but still, given the rate that the virus overtook Darwinia the first time, I doubt thats a gamble the good doctor will be willing to make.
As for the short range laser thing, if you say that the level is doable, then I guess it's your choice. Although I'm not sure that making something to intentionally frustrate the player is the best way to go about things, I certainly wouldn't play it for very long if it was designed specifically to piss me off. Just a thought
M'kay, new version is up: http://wendryn.com/darwinia/insurrectio ... 9.1.tar.gz
I fixed the scripting issues, and the problems with game.txt. I also took 'nades away from the DGs, and thinned out the red DGs on the second island. It sounds as though the AI is behaving differently enough in 1.3 to make it significantly less easy to get through the level.
xander
I fixed the scripting issues, and the problems with game.txt. I also took 'nades away from the DGs, and thinned out the red DGs on the second island. It sounds as though the AI is behaving differently enough in 1.3 to make it significantly less easy to get through the level.
xander
well i've now completed rebellion as it was, you had to use the engineer to disrupt the red guys and you had to be lucky not to lose too many to your own grenades.
intuitively you want to fight the red guys and collect their souls but it's almost impossible that way. maybe if there was some indication in the level name or the intro text it wouldn't be that bad.
looking at database the same problems are cropping up but are alleviated by the new recruits coming through the trunkport. imo using weak lasered but grenade happy darwinians as a defacto squad leads to frustrating gameplay.
intuitively you want to fight the red guys and collect their souls but it's almost impossible that way. maybe if there was some indication in the level name or the intro text it wouldn't be that bad.
looking at database the same problems are cropping up but are alleviated by the new recruits coming through the trunkport. imo using weak lasered but grenade happy darwinians as a defacto squad leads to frustrating gameplay.
redcords wrote:--==<snip>==--
Grab the new version -- I have taken 'nades away from the DGs. It sounds like you all were having a much harder time of it than I was. Let me know if the new version is an improvement or not...
As to the comment about weak lasered and grenade happy, I would love to take the 'nades away from the red DGs, as well. Add that to my list of modding requests -- the ability to set enemy DG weaponry. That one, at least, seems marginally likely, as it might be a useful ability to set in multiplayer...
And Icepick, can you come up with an alternate explanation for the presence of virii in the mod? Sepulveda using the virus is a plot device. As I recall, I am not the first to use it, either. TGF used it in Striken Souls (epitome_comm1_3)... it didn't seem to bother you then...
xander
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thefrogger
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on frustration...
Note that there are two types of frustration. One kind keeps the player coming back for more. The other kind makes the player want to stop playing. Granted, sometimes personal differences make these two overlap, but in general when the frustration is caused by elements not within the user's control it's pretty much the latter category.
Removing the grenades from the DGs is IMO a very beneficial change. With the 1.0 'nades they were stuck with they will /always/ kill more of themselves than the enemy. Even with upgrades, I never found it worth the risk to give them to the DGs. They just can't use them very well.
Removing the grenades from the DGs is IMO a very beneficial change. With the 1.0 'nades they were stuck with they will /always/ kill more of themselves than the enemy. Even with upgrades, I never found it worth the risk to give them to the DGs. They just can't use them very well.
And Icepick, can you come up with an alternate explanation for the presence of virii in the mod? Sepulveda using the virus is a plot device. As I recall, I am not the first to use it, either. TGF used it in Striken Souls (epitome_comm1_3)... it didn't seem to bother you then...
xander
I never made it all the way through Stricken Souls, so I wouldnt know on that count.
Generally speaking, the most popular explanation for there being virii around is that they weren't all wiped out during the main plot. There certainly aren't any requirements to wipe out every last virii, and it would make sense that the virus infected other areas, than the handful you visit in the game.
If you wanted an interesting plot twist, you could reveal that Greenbrae actually planted the virus into the system to cause a distraction, and leave all of his text about how Dr. Sepulveda used it. It's up to you though, its your mod after all
I personally think twisting the story and turning Sepulveda into an evil maniacal tyrant (even if he isn't) is what mods are all about. Different twists on things. If everyone made a mod and restricted themselves to IV's plot or established traits, then stories and ideas will become very samey and stale.
My only concern is the requirement to read a long backstory and way too much waffle in the mod. I just want some fun levels to play with a neat little story. Not a novella with plot twists that make my brain ache.
My only concern is the requirement to read a long backstory and way too much waffle in the mod. I just want some fun levels to play with a neat little story. Not a novella with plot twists that make my brain ache.
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