Insurrection 1.1.7

[xander]

Note that there are two types of frustration. One kind keeps the player coming back for more. The other kind makes the player want to stop playing. Granted, sometimes personal differences make these two overlap, but in general when the frustration is caused by elements not within the user's control it's pretty much the latter category.

I agree entirely. Again, I think that the DGs on my box are behaving very differently from the ones one your boxes. On my box, the red DGs run from everything, and are rarely in a range that will cause the green DGs to fire. As such, it is fairly easy to push your way through with an officer using the follow command, and an engineer to herd the red DGs. I have finished the level in about 10 minutes with 96 DGs in the SafeArea. Obviously, there is something going on with 1.3. I understand that (though I do not know exactly what the issue is), and have tried to adjust.

The same kind of thing occured when I upgraded from 1.1 to 1.2. DGs in 1.1 were far more aggressive than in 1.2, and the green DGs could simply overwhelm the red ones in the current configuration. So, when I first made the level, there were twice as many red DGs as there are now. It was not difficult to take out nearly all of the red DGs, and their spirits could be recycled. Starting with 100 green DGs, I consistantly finished the level with nearly 300 DGs (the original goal was 150, requiring the use of the incubator). So, as I said, I think that the AI is, once again, behaving differently.

I have made adjustments to Rebellion. Let me know if they work, and I will do something similar in Database.

xander

[thefrogger]

My take on the story elements was that Greenbrae was just making up evil stuff about Dr. S anyway to get you on his side. So none of it actually has to be true. I haven't gotten to the side-switching part yet, so I don't know Dr. S's explanation for what's going on, but there's certainly an opportunity there for alternate explanations for the virii presence. I think the one at the start of the story works perfectly well and consistent with the rest of the Greenbrae angle, but I agree that it would be nice to see some twists at the end. It sounds like a good idea to ultimately have Greenbrae responsible for reintroducing the virii elements, and just couldn't control them. (Or Dr.S helped turn them against him). I suppose I should wait to see what you have in there though before making a final judgement.

Also, I don't think there's too much story text in the mod. I rather appreciated all the work that went into it, and it added to my enjoyment of the mod.

> Re: Rebellion

I'm not sure what this "engineer herding" behavior is supposed to be, because red DGs seem to shoot at the Engineers on my box. Perhaps the developers changed the behavior since it really doesn't make a lot of sense for them to be afraid of engineers.

I was able to get through the original, barely, by avoiding as many reds as I could, charging through the others quickly, and replenishing the numbers as much as I could with the incubator. (I think I wound up with 56). I also think that simply getting rid of the grenades would have fixed things with no other changes, and I'll let you know if it seems too easy now on my next run-thru. (Still anxious to see the end for now).

Hopefully Database plays better with the 'nade change as well, because I didn't really enjoy those first two levels that much. I had a great time in Discovery though, and in hindsight I remember thinking that it worked pretty well having the increasing capabilities through the first several levels. Like:

Rebellion - mostly running
Database - fighting with DGs only
Discovery - a squad, but you have to be careful
And full warfare after that.

Now that I see that in writing, being *forced* to fight with DGs only is an interesting element that doesn't otherwise happen, and it's worth tweaking to make it work out. (If the 'nade change didn't already do that). In levels like Recruitment, it's pretty easy to clear out the reds with a squad ahead of time.

Speaking of Recruitment, this was *REALLY* great to do with only one task slot! Not being able to make new officers while the squad was active made for a lot of interesting tactics and management. I'd love to see you delay introduction of the taskmanager for one more island here.

> Station

The power requirement in this one needs to be upped to 100. It peaked into 50 when I was just getting started, and hadn't gone into either of the side islands yet. In fact, it hit 100 after just one side was cleared, but didn't seem to get dramatically higher than that when it was all done.

I also noticed that it triggers even before activating the control tower near the generator. It's like that tower doesn't do anything.

> Recruitment

Same thing happens here with the soul collectors, with the objective being reached way before completion of the level.

[hitm4n]

just a quick question.

Should the first radar dish on "database" be operational ? (it isn't)

No, there is a control tower. Look to the east of the first island. There is a very small island with some virii on it.

xander

Engineer gets wiped out instantly. DG's can't get to the island ???
How the hell can i clear it out or get an engineer to it ?

[shinygerbil]

Search for something known as fishing...

[xander]

> Re: Rebellion

I'm not sure what this "engineer herding" behavior is supposed to be, because red DGs seem to shoot at the Engineers on my box. Perhaps the developers changed the behavior since it really doesn't make a lot of sense for them to be afraid of engineers.

I was able to get through the original, barely, by avoiding as many reds as I could, charging through the others quickly, and replenishing the numbers as much as I could with the incubator. (I think I wound up with 56). I also think that simply getting rid of the grenades would have fixed things with no other changes, and I'll let you know if it seems too easy now on my next run-thru. (Still anxious to see the end for now).

Yeah, if the red DGs are standing and fighting, it is very different. The change, then, should improve things

Hopefully Database plays better with the 'nade change as well, because I didn't really enjoy those first two levels that much

I hope so, too. However, 0.9.2 will have fewer red DGs in that level, as well.

I had a great time in Discovery though, and in hindsight I remember thinking that it worked pretty well having the increasing capabilities through the first several levels. Like:

Rebellion - mostly running
Database - fighting with DGs only
Discovery - a squad, but you have to be careful
And full warfare after that.

That was kind of the idea -- you show up and have nothing, and your abilities are added to through action. It works in terms of story, and I think it works in terms of game dynamics, though you do have to get over trying to kill everything in the first couple of levels.

...
Speaking of Recruitment, this was *REALLY* great to do with only one task slot! Not being able to make new officers while the squad was active made for a lot of interesting tactics and management. I'd love to see you delay introduction of the taskmanager for one more island here.

To be honest, I have gone back and forth a lot on that one. In the original design of the level, you only got the improved task manager on the last island (the one with the two trunkports). However, after playing the level through several times, I found that it was far to frustrating. I think I will probably leave it as it.

> Station

The power requirement in this one needs to be upped to 100. It peaked into 50 when I was just getting started, and hadn't gone into either of the side islands yet. In fact, it hit 100 after just one side was cleared, but didn't seem to get dramatically higher than that when it was all done.

I also noticed that it triggers even before activating the control tower near the generator. It's like that tower doesn't do anything.

Yeah, Station has been giving me no end of headaches. In 1.1, a Genrator came online when 1) you met the power requirement and 2) a linked ControlTower was captured. In 1.2 (the version I have) and apearantly 1.3, you do not have to capture the ControlTower. So, I am not quite sure what to do about that. In 1.1, it was necessary to capture the ControlTower, which made it necessary to capture that island. Now, I would love to be able to up the power requirement. However, that cannot be done in the game.

I need to revise Station, but have not gotten to it yet. I think what I may do is something like what I did in Communications (open that level up in the editor and see what a terrible kludge it is :) )

Same thing happens here with the soul collectors, with the objective being reached way before completion of the level.

Hrm... that is odd. I will remove a few of the red DGs... it seems that collectors collect more souls in the more recent version? I will remove some of the groups of red DGs.

xander

[The GoldFish]

use 2 generators, double objective, double power requirement

[thefrogger]

Well, I need to retract my statement about engineer herding. It does work in the 1.3 version; I just never discovered that tactic.

Rebellion is now trivial to walk through using that tactic, but that may be okay. Those that don't know the tactic can still get through due to the 'nade removal.

> Annihilation

All of the spelling "fixes" were made in the wrong direction. It would be nice to just have this spelled correctly throughout.

Very interesting level design for SD fighting. Kudos.

I found completing this level extremely confusing, since I didn't want to open the primary_core trunk, but could not kill the last SD without doing so. I finally decided to open the port, and the level "completed" when it's control tower was half-programmed. (I think the engineer got eaten at the same time, so I'm still not sure what action completed the level).

IMO, the level needs to be completable without touching the primary_core port.

> Backdoor

Spider task shows "Completed" on initial entry to the level.

[thefrogger]

Hrm... that is odd. I will remove a few of the red DGs... it seems that collectors collect more souls in the more recent version? I will remove some of the groups of red DGs.

I had initially reported this as "Recruitment", but it is in fact in "Processor". Since that's the only level with soul collectors it may have been clear already, but I'm just making sure.

Are there red DGs already powering collectors? (In effect, sort of "helping" you acheive the objective?)

I think that was the case in Station too.

> Annihilation

For clarification, I had not killed the third SD. The level just ended at the moment where the control tower changed from red to yellow.

[xander]

I had initially reported this as "Recruitment", but it is in fact in "Processor". Since that's the only level with soul collectors it may have been clear already, but I'm just making sure.

Yeah, I figured.

Are there red DGs already powering collectors? (In effect, sort of "helping" you acheive the objective?)

This is, in fact, what is going on. In my mind, I have the idea that these are all functional systems, and that your goal is to take them. I have reconsidered that notion, as it is causing too many things to auto-complete. It was a nice idea, but it just isn't working. I don't mind giving the player a bit of an advantage, but it seems this was too much. Again, I think that collectors may be more efficent on other people's boxes -- perhaps it is related to framerates? In any level with soul rain, I am lucky to get better than 10 fps...

0.9.2 now has almost no red DGs manning any type of collector or solar panel. I will upload that tonight.

> Annihilation

For clarification, I had not killed the third SD. The level just ended at the moment where the control tower changed from red to yellow.

First, I will fix that spelling. Silly me. Point of fact, though, the lines in game.txt went from Anhilation to Anihilation. Different spelling error.

Second, I think that the SafeAreas in Annihilation and Backdoor are not working properly. They are each set to go off at zero, which means that when everything is dead, the objective should be complete. Perhaps they are starting online? This is not the case on my box, but SafeAreas are a bit touchy.

On the other hand, I did notice a scripting error in game.txt with regards to Annihilation. The point of the level is this: when you open the trunkport to Backdoor, you have decided to side with Sepulveda. At this moment, the level should exit, and the mission reset to something else. You should not have to take out the SDs. If, on the other hand, you decide to continue to work for Greenbrae, you need to take out the SDs, then open the trunkport to Primary_Core. Again, this should automatically end the level. It sounds like SafeAreas are not working properly for you, which is half of the problem. The other half of the problem is that I set up game.txt incorrectly. Right now, you could open both trunkports, then kill the SDs, and complete both story arcs.

Line 193 of game.txt, which reads:

Code: Select all

BuildingOnline:anihilation,2 BuildingOnline:anihilation,51

should read:

Code: Select all

BuildingOnline:anihilation,2

The misspelling of Annihilation should remain, as changing that would, for the moment, screw everything up. I will upload an update tonight that corrects those issues.

As to the SafeArea issues, does anyone have any idea what is going on?

My understanding is that you set the capacity of a SafeArea, and it goes off only when exactly that number of units are in the SafeArea. Thus, if a level starts with 100 spiders, and your goal is to kill 50 of them, setting the SafeArea's capacity to 50 would cause it to come online after 50 spiders had been killed. The SafeAreas that I have set are at zero, which should mean that they only become active when there are not units of the right type in them. Yet, they seem to be online by default. Any suggestions?

Note -- those SafeAreas work perfectly on my box, so I appreciate knowing that they are not working under 1.3.

xander

EDIT:

Code: Select all

$ grep -R anihilation Insurrection/
$ grep -R Anihilation Insurrection/

returns nothing -- that should do it...

[thefrogger]

In my mind, I have the idea that these are all functional systems, and that your goal is to take them. I have reconsidered that notion, as it is causing too many things to auto-complete.

You could add the goal to eliminate all the red DGs. That would allow you to keep the initial functional state, and still avoid early completion of the level.

Again, I think that collectors may be more efficent on other people's boxes -- perhaps it is related to framerates? In any level with soul rain, I am lucky to get better than 10 fps...

That may be. It never drops below 60+ here.

I think that the SafeAreas in Annihilation and Backdoor are not working properly. They are each set to go off at zero...

Okay, that probably confirms that the level actually ended when the SD ate the engineer at the primary_core control tower. But that's somewhat odd that I wound up on Dr. S's path when I did so.

I agree that the ideal time to end the level is when the backdoor trunk comes online. The population won't be zero when that happens though, since there's an engineer present. In any case, I'm not sure why it didn't trigger when the Backdoor point was clear of both baddies and friendlies.

[shinygerbil]

That's not how I figured a SafeArea works...

I thought that if a SafeArea is set for 0 units, then >=0 units will set it off.

Also, the radar dish which leads to the island with the Discovery trunk port in the second level will not connect if the landscape detail is set to low.

[The GoldFish]

Xander is correct RE the way Safe Areas work.

Think about Yard, if they work the way you figure that's one easy ass level.

Noting of course you have to know that building offline doesn't work at all...

[xander]

In my mind, I have the idea that these are all functional systems, and that your goal is to take them. I have reconsidered that notion, as it is causing too many things to auto-complete.

You could add the goal to eliminate all the red DGs. That would allow you to keep the initial functional state, and still avoid early completion of the level.

I have thought about that, too. The problem with doing that is that it requires a global SpawnPointMaster be present in the level. I suppose that I could hide one way off the map, or inside of some other building or something, but I really don't want one where the player is likely to see it. Communications is bad enough where I have a BluePrintRelay way up in the sky that is visible through the clouds (if I make it any higher, the beam disappears...). The SpawnPointMaster should, to my mind, only be present in levels with spawn systems, otherwise it ruins the logic of the building.

Okay, that probably confirms that the level actually ended when the SD ate the engineer at the primary_core control tower. But that's somewhat odd that I wound up on Dr. S's path when I did so.
I agree that the ideal time to end the level is when the backdoor trunk comes online. The population won't be zero when that happens though, since there's an engineer present. In any case, I'm not sure why it didn't trigger when the Backdoor point was clear of both baddies and friendlies.

You are misunderstanding, I think. A SafeArea has three parameters that we need to worry about in this context: unit type, team, and unit number (or capacity). A SafeArea can only be triggered by one type of unit, on a certain team. In Annihilation, there is a large SafeArea that is set to team 1 (red), looking for 0 SDs. When the level starts, there are three SDs in the SafeArea, so it should be offline. That would be the first thing to check when you start the level. As the red SDs are killed, there are fewer in the SafeArea, until you reach zero, at which point it should come online. No other units should matter.

Now, the way the level should function is as follows. The level should auto-complete when:
(a) the trunkport to Backdoor is openned (whether or not there are SDs present)
(b) the trunkport to Primary_Core is openned, and there are no SDs present

In terms of plot, this makes sense -- if you decide to fight for Sepulveda, it doesn't matter if you leave a few of his defense systems active. In terms of game mechanics, it prevents two story threads from both occuring. The game.txt in 0.9.1 is incorrect as outlined above. Oddly enough, I always take out the SDs first, so I have never encountered the bug I just described. However, it is there.

TGF -- are you having the same SafeArea issues that other folk are having? Can you think of any other way to make the levels work? Because without SafeAreas, I am at a bit of a loss...

shinygerbil: I will try to fix the radar dish. On the other hand, if you play Discovery on low detail, getting up the hills becomes trivial. As I say in the PDF, I make no apologies if things don't work well in lower detail settings.

xander

EDIT: shinygerbil: I cannot reproduce the radar dish not connecting thing... which dish are you trying to direct in what direction? A screenshot might help...

[thefrogger]

I seem to have gotten stuck in Backdoor (after Sanctuary).

I enabled the trunkport to secondary_core, and the red DGs poured through. I've taken over the level and gotten my DGs to the trunkport. That objective shows complete, but the activate trunkport objective still shows incomplete even though I've done it.

There are two control towers surrounded by security fences, only one of which is opened. There were two "enable trunk port" tasks, one shows completed, but the main "activate trunk port to secondary_core" is still incomplete -- as is the second enable task -- as if it were waiting for me to activate the 2nd tower still inside the force field.

When I leave and reenter Backdoor, now only one "Enable trunk port" task shows, and it is incomplete.

[The GoldFish]

I haven't tried, I've been too busy with other things and fixing MS - I'll try to give it a whirl if I get time...

I should point out I have endless safe area problems when making Stricken, so you're not alone!

edit - loading up backdoor with AAA, the objective was not yet completed, though obviously that doesn't mean much...