New units/models possible?

[Cyberdyne]

I had a great idea for a new type of level. It takes influence from the old 8-bit classic The Sentinel by Geoff Crammond if I remember right.

I want to have a unit that can`t move but can build boulders and replicate itself and transport into its replicant. It should also be able to absorb energy from darwinians, each darwinian being worth 1 boulder and 3 boulders equals 1 replicant. The catch is it can only build on a square of land that is below its eyeline. So it would have to build boulders to get higher.
The object of the level would be to absorb the energy(soul?) from the master sentinel which is on the highest piece of land in the level.

So will it be possible to create a new type of unit with its own conditions etc?

[Jackmn]

It is certainly possible to create new unit graphics, but new units are not possible, nor is it likely they will be possible any time in the near future.

Sorry mate.

[Hendar23]

I thought the game was supposed to be easy to mod? When people talk about makeing mods around here don't they just mean levels?

[LLamaBoy]

Not necessarily just levels. It is possible to modify the game graphics, such as the Darwinians' sprites or the water texture/colour. Even remodeling unbits is possible, if a little difficult without a proper model editor.
Creating new units though is a whole different matter. For that you'd need to modify the core game code. It is possible a DevCD will be released in the future, as they did with Uplink, but I wouldn't expect that for at least a year or so. Maybe future patches will open up more modding capabilities.

[xyzyxx]

I think they should add more stuff that wasn't in the main game, besides the Tripods.

[Jackmn]

I think they should just export unit and building functionality to dll/so files with a standard interface. Then people can add and modify units to their heart's desire.

[Cyberdyne]

Units and there functionality should be scripted in text documents, with sections on AI, path finding, and loads of other variables which make it work in the digital world. I remember working on mods for Max Payne way back, and thats how they did it. I remember the KungFu mod was amazing.

There isn`t anything there at the moment that lets us change the games behaviour. I`d love to be able to edit the space invaders and give them a bit of AI, so that they could seek and destroy, and maybe make a new unit that can fire up at them. Could create a classic 3d space invaders level too. That would be cool.

[Jackmn]

Scripting is inefficient, somewhat difficult to implement, and ultimately far less powerful than simply allowing dlls/so file plugins.

It does have the advantage of being easier to edit, but power is more important.

Plus, somebody can implement a scripting language on the dll/so side of things.

[Icepick]

A general scripting language is far more accessible than DLL plugins. For starters, you dont need a compiler or knowledge of whatever language (C++ in this case). While using DLL's might allow a lot more freedom, I think the number of people using the system would be decreased by a huge amount than if a simple scripting system was used.

[Jackmn]

People can implement a scripting language DLL/so side (Python and Perl are good choices) if they want one, and people unwilling to take the time to learn C++ can use that. Since the interface would be standard, simply make a copy of the DLL/so for each weapon, and write up scripts for them all.

This lightens the load for IV, and gives everybody what they want.

[Cyberdyne]

The way I see it, scripting is very powerful if the game has been written with them in mind from the start. With Max Payne you had access to every bit of the game engine and then some. The KungFu mod changed the original game into a totally new experience with new gameplay, physics, ai, and provided a much better challenge than the original game, and even surpassed the subsequent matrix games that followed.

I can`t see the logic that 'scripting is inefficient, somewhat difficult to implement, and ultimately far less powerful than simply allowing dlls/so file plugins'. It depends on how the original game has been made.

Darwinia itself uses scripts for the maps/level/world actions. But AI and the units functions seem to be hardcoded in the darwinia.exe. (Which I`ve tried to unpack and disassemble to examine). Talking of which, I got a fully working unpacked exe at 1.29Mb after rebuilding the IAT, but I can`t as yet get the string references. Has somebody else managed it yet? Its upx but not identified as being packed by upx.

As this is the Mod Projects forum I may as well put this here.
http://www.cyberdyne.homecall.co.uk/Redshirt2.rar
Decrypts and Encrypts redshirt2. Command line run from .bat.
Used afx(didn`t work) and Uniter source from the general forum. The vb binaries doesn`t work for me, without installing MScrap .NET.
Was it you Jackmn that worked out the Key Table?
Would be nice if Icepick could host this. I was the first to make patches for uplink (Internic password, $1000000 money, voice trainer and tracer disable). Although its not all my own work, I just edited the source a little as I couldn`t get either to work as I wanted.

This message is too long because I`ve just come home from the pub about an hour ago.......sorrry...

[Jackmn]

Was it you Jackmn that worked out the Key Table?

Yes, with OllyDbg. No real cryptoanalysis or anything of that sort took place - I just spent a long time tracing through the program, setting breakpoints, guessing, finally finding the decryption function.

I can`t see the logic that 'scripting is inefficient, somewhat difficult to implement, and ultimately far less powerful than simply allowing dlls/so file plugins'. It depends on how the original game has been made.

* Scripting takes a good deal of time to implement, because of the bindings. It is inherently easier to create a C++ interface to a game written in C++.

* Scripting is slow - this limits the complexity of the units. You won't be making any multi-layer layer backprop dynamically trained NNs.

* C++ is simply more powerful when it comes to math, or any cpu-intensive activities, plus it can be assembly-optimised.

* Scripting can be implemented by DLLs/SOs. DLLs/SOs would be a pain to implement in scripting.

[Cyberdyne]

Ok, you make good points, and I agree. But 95% of people wanting to create something may find it too much of a steep learning curve.

Do you have the disassembly of the redshirt2 code as it is in the darwinia.exe? I might be able to make an inline patch so that we wouldn`t need to deredshirt at all, I just need to find the calls to decrypt and encrypt then.

Just got a new Ollydbg, my old version didn`t have any plugins and was buggy. Have now uninstalled softice and trw2000.

Thanks

[Jackmn]

It's zipped up with upx, otherwise I would have been toying with it everywhere.


Scripting can be implemented with DLLS/SO files. The two are not mutually exclusive. All you need is one person to write a C++ dll that can interface with Python, and everybody can use it.

[Phydaux]

I don't think modding darwinia should be about the coding and decripting and basic hacking to implement your own mods the way Uplink was. Part of the fun of Uplink was all the other bits and bobs not related to the game. Darwinina has nothing to do with this.

It would be great if the modding functionallity could be expanded so new units, buildings weapons could be added. It would also be great if it gave the most accessability, dlls, plugins, scripts, etc.

Not everone who has the technical knowlege to implement "low-level" modding/coding has the creativity to make excellent mods. The wider reaching the ability to mod is, the bigger and better the community will get.

Darwinia has definatly been helped by the fan-base from Uplink. It's only going to grow with darwinia, but it can grow more and be more highly sustained if there is a lot of innovation and new things to do with darwinia. Darwinia is a relativly short game with little room for development and this won't help to keep people around.

A Dev-CD is a great idea, but it's not going to be around for a long while yet, we need more basic tweeking of the game available to us.