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Postby caleb_grey » Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:03 am

Stewsburntmonkey wrote:What's not secure about the current system or the old one for that matter? Both are much better than E-bay. . .


it might be fine and secure, but i know i, and others would have a problem with giving an unknown storefront my cc #. atleast ebay, and steam are known quantities and are going to be around for awhile.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:18 am

Well it is much safer than using your credit card in a brick and mortar store, or do you avoid those as well?

Actually you are probably more at risk from someone hacking the credit card company's database than from an online webstore like IV's. :)
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Postby caleb_grey » Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:21 am

Stewsburntmonkey wrote:Well it is much safer than using your credit card in a brick and mortar store, or do you avoid those as well?

Actually you are probably more at risk from someone hacking the credit card company's database than from an online webstore like IV's. :)


:lol: sad but true! :P
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Postby NeoThermic » Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:56 pm

caleb_grey wrote:
I dunno if its just me, but I died of laughter reading that.

First... the source engine is DirectX, while Darwinia is OpenGL. The diffrence there is like saying you can convert a McLaren into a Ferrari. It just won't happen.

Secondly the Source Engine is chunky for a game that doesn't need its features.

Where does Darwinia use Version 2.0 (and below) shaders, bump mapping, LOD on models and world? (more LOD wouldn't go amiss in Darwinia however ;) ). Why does Darwinia need HLSL and HDRL when its trying to replicate a retro feel? Since when does water in Darwinia reflect?

The Source Engine is great and all, but thats like trying to use a sledge to kill a fly. Its really uneeded and will cause more damage than needed.


:lol: thats a load of crock. if small mod team had 3 months to seriously recreate the game in source it would be done, and run better at that. and with mp in there as well.


Ha. I realy do call bullshit on that. If it can be done, do it. You have three months. And don't say 'oh, but they don't have time'. Find people to put in half as much work and get it done in 6 months then. If you say any diffrent, you're just stalling because it can't be done.

If you don't belive me, buy Uplink's devdisk. Look at the code. Now try *understand* parts of that code. You'll find it difficult, as Uplink was changed about so much that its quite horrid code. Darwinia might not be the same, but I would wager there's things done in Darwinia that can't really be ported well to a generic engine like the Source Engine.


caleb_grey wrote:
Misinformation, misinformation, and more misinformation!

The "key gameplay" (I assume you mean gestures) isn't being removed. They are adding a simpler way to play the game. Since IV are not tied down to some money sucking corperation, they can make such intresting changes as they please without giving any higher management heart attacks. If it gets Darwinia to those who hated the gestures system, then great.

NeoThermic


where exactly do you get the idea that iv would lose any control over their game? talk about misinformation. steam is there for independant developers to use to distribute. valve has no interest in mucking around with others games, they have enough on their plate as it is. lets not forget valve is an indepentent developer themselves. a highly successful one at that.


Where the hell did you get the idea that I thought that IV would lose control over the game? Jesus man, read what I write, not what you *think* I write.

caleb_grey wrote:if you seriously think "adding" a simpler way to play the game is going to magically make it into a retail success you are fooling yourself. the gestures are the key gameplay element. any other control scheme that deviates from the gestures just rips the soul out of the game. so instead of a fun, short, original game, with a unique control aspect, you end up with a boring, short, point and click kinda been there done that game.
it might as well be doom3. pretty, but pretty boring.


I don't belive its going to be a "magical" success. But there's people out there (and on these forums) that hammerd the gesture system because it didn't work for them, they found it unneeded and wanted something simpler. IV listens to such things. This is why you're seeing the change. Now read what I wrote:

I wrote:If it gets Darwinia to those who hated the gestures system, then great.


Note the if. I'm not saying it will. It might fail horribly. But if it doesn't, then thats great.

As for the actual issue of what consitites of gameplay, I don't belive that a control system is the whole or key gameplay. Darwinia has a story, and a damn good one at that. If the story can't carry the game alone, then people are looking at the wrong part of the game.

caleb_grey wrote:its funny you think iv making the change is innovative, its actually exactly the kind of thing a money sucking corperation would have had them do. i cant imagine the game has sold particularly well, especially with all the hoops one had to goto to get a legal copy. the delays with the store havent helped either, and is still dodgy to buy something from. they would have been better off setting up an ebay store. judging by the 20,000+ downloads of the game illegally, iv have lost a ton of customers by releasing in the manner they did.


Where did I say it was innovative? Really, where did I say it? I said it was 'intresting', yeah, because IV have made such intresting changes before, but I never said it was innovative. You're doing it again, reading what you want to argue rather than reading what I'm writing.

What "hoops" are you reffering to? The day the game came out, I bought a copy using worldplay. It was that simple. It took a max of 5 mins to do. There was no hoop jumping done.

Now, where on earth did you get this figure of 20,000+ downloads which are illegal? Hmm?

As for "delays" with the store. IV's always had a store, worldplay. Its always been there. The new store is just that, removing the worldplay store and letting IV control it. (and my advice to you is to stop bashing the store, you don't know anything about its history.)



caleb_grey wrote:the point of the thread wasnt to port to source, that was just a side thought i had while creating the thread. maybe you missed the :P after the source comment?


You said it could be done, and stuck with the conviction. I'm saying that it couldn't be done for a few reasons. If you don't like me calling you out on that, back it up and prove me wrong.

caleb_grey wrote:the point is, putting the game on steam would have many advantages for an indepedent dev like iv.

1. huge base of gamers to sell directly to
2. huge amounts of free publicity
3. secure online payment options
4. no hassle and headaches of setting up and maintaining an online store
5. piracy made much more difficult


Ok, 1 and 2 are quite valid. It could help exposure. But at what cost to IV? How much does it take to get a game on the steam system? (see Darksun's post for the full set of questions.)

3 is really a bit crap. Both IV stores have had secure payments. as for 4, again, the new store is up. The hassle we had with it is over. (and as above, don't shout out about what you don't know).

As for 5, uh, yeah. How do you work that one out? HL2's protection was cracked (ok, steam did patch and ban those people, but by then people already had the illegal copies).

I dunno. Your posts seem half-thought out, they seem to argue things that I'm not saying or never had, and generally lack proof. Please start showing proof.

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Postby NeoThermic » Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:06 pm

Stewsburntmonkey wrote:Actually you are probably more at risk from someone hacking the credit card company's database than from an online webstore like IV's. :)


The only information stored on IV's database is your address for making an order. Apart from that, nothing else is stored. Credit card info doesn't exsist. It would be *very* pointless for someone to hack the store in search of CC's :D

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Postby Josh mc » Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:25 pm

Surely porting Darwinia to source would be redundant anyway, seeing as how the graphics aren't exactly improvable. Why would you want to make Darwinia more realistic?
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Postby ttm » Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:46 pm

Again, where the hell did porting Darwinia to Source come into this topic? I was under the impression that it was a discussion about if a Steam release would be a good idea. Where the hell did all the talk about Source come from?
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:09 pm

I think it is just an abstract discussion now. I think (or hope) we have established that there is no good reason to redo Darwinia using the Source engine. :)
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Postby Jackmn » Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:32 pm

ported well to a generic engine like Steam
I'm reasonably certain that relatively little programming work is needed for a game to be distributed via Steam.
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Postby NeoThermic » Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:52 pm

Jackmn wrote:
ported well to a generic engine like Steam
I'm reasonably certain that relatively little programming work is needed for a game to be distributed via Steam.


That part of the sentence reffers to the game engine steam, not the re-distribution bit of Steam.

I'll agree that it might not take much work, but I do reffer back to Darksun's post for the full set of questions that I would love to hear the answer to.

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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:17 pm

There is no Steam engine as I understand. Steam is simply an online distribution system. Source is the game engine that powers most of Valves recent games.
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Postby NeoThermic » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:24 pm

Stewsburntmonkey wrote:There is no Steam engine as I understand. Steam is simply an online distribution system. Source is the game engine that powers most of Valves recent games.


You are quite right, lemme go back and clarifiy my post...

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Postby caleb_grey » Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:19 am

Ha. I realy do call bullshit on that. If it can be done, do it. You have three months. And don't say 'oh, but they don't have time'. Find people to put in half as much work and get it done in 6 months then. If you say any diffrent, you're just stalling because it can't be done.


why would anyone waste their time on porting a game hardly anyone knows about? that was the whole point about my comment of porting it to source in the first place. "if" iv would bring the game to steam it might be a good idea to port it to source so one of the biggest, if not the biggest modding communities around can use familiar tools and take the game places you, i, or iv cant even imagine.


If you don't belive me, buy Uplink's devdisk. Look at the code. Now try *understand* parts of that code. You'll find it difficult, as Uplink was changed about so much that its quite horrid code. Darwinia might not be the same, but I would wager there's things done in Darwinia that can't really be ported well to a generic engine like the Source Engine.


now you are just being silly. i love the game, i love what iv have put together, but darwinia really is not that complicated, and would probably benifit from the mature scripting, and renderer of the source engine, which are the 2 biggest complaints in every review of the game.

Where the hell did you get the idea that I thought that IV would lose control over the game? Jesus man, read what I write, not what you *think* I write.


Since IV are not tied down to some money sucking corperation, they can make such intresting changes as they please without giving any higher management heart attacks


the context that comes from and your insistence that darksuns paranoid questions be answered, which they will, is where that idea comes from. now it might not have been your intent, but it certainly seemed like you were infering valve would be that money sucking corperation.

I don't belive its going to be a "magical" success. But there's people out there (and on these forums) that hammerd the gesture system because it didn't work for them, they found it unneeded and wanted something simpler. IV listens to such things. This is why you're seeing the change. Now read what I wrote:

I wrote:If it gets Darwinia to those who hated the gestures system, then great.


Note the if. I'm not saying it will. It might fail horribly. But if it doesn't, then thats great.


well then we have different opinions on why iv is "adding" this "easy" option, that imo will break the key gameplay. its basically the same either way though really. money.

As for the actual issue of what consitites of gameplay, I don't belive that a control system is the whole or key gameplay. Darwinia has a story, and a damn good one at that. If the story can't carry the game alone, then people are looking at the wrong part of the game.


well for me, the whole key to what makes this game great is the timing and tension of trying to input a graphical symbol to run a program. removing this feature to me breaks the gameplay. if you think the story is what is carrying this game, well thats your opinion and you are entitled to. as i am to mine and my opinion is your opinion is once again silly. :P

Where did I say it was innovative? Really, where did I say it? I said it was 'intresting', yeah, because IV have made such intresting changes before, but I never said it was innovative. You're doing it again, reading what you want to argue rather than reading what I'm writing.


oh forgive me i transposed a word by mistake. lets get out the pitch forks. atleast they both start with the same letter, sorta like steam, and source huh?

What "hoops" are you reffering to? The day the game came out, I bought a copy using worldplay. It was that simple. It took a max of 5 mins to do. There was no hoop jumping done.


worldplay? never heard of it. infact i hadnt heard of iv either when i found out about darwinia. as explained earlier, just handing out my cc# over the internet to some entity i have no idea who they are, sorry i'm just not comfortable with that. i'm glad you had no hoops to go through, i did.

Now, where on earth did you get this figure of 20,000+ downloads which are illegal? Hmm?


http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8&q=darwinia+torrents

go count for your self. i stopped at 17,800. maybe you can scrounge up the rest, i'm sure it wont be hard.

As for "delays" with the store. IV's always had a store, worldplay. Its always been there. The new store is just that, removing the worldplay store and letting IV control it. (and my advice to you is to stop bashing the store, you don't know anything about its history.)


who is bashing the store? and why would i give a crap about its history? its an unkown quantity and thats all that matters to me and anyone who might have an interest in buying from it. i can whip up a similar looking store with some credit card pics, and a "we're secure" logo too. doesnt mean anyone else out there cant either. it happens. i should know i've fallen for it myself once.

You said it could be done, and stuck with the conviction. I'm saying that it couldn't be done for a few reasons. If you don't like me calling you out on that, back it up and prove me wrong.


well considering i am not the only one who is saying it can be done in this thread, consider yourself proven.


Ok, 1 and 2 are quite valid. It could help exposure. But at what cost to IV? How much does it take to get a game on the steam system? (see Darksun's post for the full set of questions.)


finally, back on topic.

Darksun wrote:The question is would it be cost effective. How much does it cost to get your game on steam, what percentage of the sale do you get, how much would this *actually* increase sales, how much of the games rights would be retained by IV and how much control would Valve/Steam have.


cost to get your game on steam? how would i know? i dont work for valve and afaik that info is private. from things valve have said about what they want to do with steam, including having independent devs, modders, and pretty much anyone who has a game to sell, i dont think there would be an upfront cost. maybe it would be a case by case basis. thats a question for iv to ask valve.

% of steam sales? noway for me to know specifics, but,

an answer from marc healey of lionhead studios, who is having his own personal side project, rag doll kung fu published on steam. from the games forum: http://allboards.lionhead.com/forumdisplay.php?f=76

1) Is Mark having to give them a share of the profits for their help to distribute the game?

1) Of course! That's how this type of thing works - the deal is very fair - Valve are sincere about respecting developers - which is why steam is so good in my eyes.

And credit to Valve, for daring to promote something different.


from an interview with valves doug lombardi on gamecloud:
http://www.gamecloud.com/article.php?article_id=479

Gamecloud - Of course, distributing on the Internet also frees game developers from dealing directly with publishers. Do you feel that this will also allow the freedom for games to be more creative and take risks in gameplay design and content?

Doug Lombardi - Creativity and risk are not popular in the green light room at the publishers' offices these days - ask any developer who's pitched an original game idea in the last 12 months. So yes, the ability to create a game of any size and completely of your own design is a central benefit to this alternative form of distribution. Counter-Strike is a great example of a project that would have been killed in a traditional green light meeting (no single player, extreme difficulty from the first moment of play, etc). In addition, with Steam these authors have a place where they can sell their works and pocket the majority of the revenues earned.


how much would it actually increase sales? i cant imagine it would do worse than what its done so far. especially when you consider the # of potential buyers you will be selling directly to.

how much of the games rights would be retained by IV and how much control would Valve/Steam have?

what makes you think iv would lose rights or control? it would depend on the deal they would sign. i would think it would be anywhere from none to all. it would be up to iv to decide that.

heres a nice quote from a chap who works at lionhead with mark healey, and has helped on rdkf:

valve have been very supportive of mark all along, and also amazingly free to let him 'do his thing' - not once have they asked for him to change a feature or whatever. quite amazing to work with; and whenever we've had a development question they've had people to help us.


doesnt sound like mark is having a problem. if you want to know more head on over to his forums and ask. head on over there anyway its a really unique game that looks quite fun.

3 is really a bit crap. Both IV stores have had secure payments. as for 4, again, the new store is up. The hassle we had with it is over. (and as above, don't shout out about what you don't know).


secure to you is insecure to me. i dont know what your hangup is with the store, maybe the server is in your basement? i gave my reasons for it. dont like it? oh well.

As for 5, uh, yeah. How do you work that one out? HL2's protection was cracked (ok, steam did patch and ban those people, but by then people already had the illegal copies).


yes it was, a year ago. and since darwinia is already out there in the wild in its current form its too little too late. polish it up, get the multiplay in there, maybe a small expansion and some easier tools, and there would be a reason to want it agian. how many people out of that 20,000 who downloaded it illegally, would pay for that? why did those 20,000 download it? obviously because they had an interest. how many of those 20,000 dl it because they didnt want to buy from the "store". how many of them would have bought it if popped up on steam? how many used the dl as an extended demo and decided the gestures was the reason they didnt want to purchase? i think you know where i stand on that.
as for steam protecting a future itteration of darwinia i think it would do a better job than whats already occured. atleast the ratio of stolen to bought copies would be much lower, 1 by having it available in a known and trusted outlet selling it, and 2. by steam offering its whatever protection valve uses.
i have a feeling hl2's ratio is quit abit smaller than darwinia's right now. are there any sales figures availabe for it?


I dunno. Your posts seem half-thought out, they seem to argue things that I'm not saying or never had, and generally lack proof. Please start showing proof.


hey, just because its my first post and thread here, doesnt mean its my first on the internets. :roll:

i only want whats best for iv. i respect what they do, find them increadably creative, and enjoy the game. i want more. i want it to succeed, and i want more games from them in the future. hopefully we get that. on steam :P
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:34 am

1) Most of those torrents are the demo and the ones that are not don't seem to be very active at all. In any event your 20,000 number seems more to be pulled out of thin air than anything else.

2) Your view of the online store is just that your view. You say it is insecure, but you have absolutely no way to know that. The fact that you don't trust it doesn't make it insecure (it really just makes you paranoid and a bit foolish).
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Postby panda of doom » Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:51 am

Josh mc wrote:Surely porting Darwinia to source would be redundant anyway, seeing as how the graphics aren't exactly improvable. Why would you want to make Darwinia more realistic?


One word duder.. ragdolls. Oh and you could give Darwinians expressions based on if they are happy :) surprised :O or getting eaten :( </sarcasm>

Porting to Source would be retarded. Distributing on Steam would not be.

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