The Official Unofficial Multiwinia Ladder

Working on new maps for Multiwinia? Discuss!

Moderators: bert_the_turtle, jelco

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jelco
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Postby jelco » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:50 pm

There is a link to the page on the right sidebar to the challenges overview, but it only shows up if you have any outstanding challenges. It's a good point that it doesn't seem all that conspicuous though, I will move it to the left.

*shifts*

It's below the 'Challenge a player' link. ;)

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Postby Imeanunoharm » Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:46 am

The scoring system is really bugging me. I did send an email to "staff", but I may as well sign up and address it as others may be able to elaborate.

Please don't take anything personally if I mention your name, but I can't explain without examples. I am not trying to blame anyone, just trying to understand. GAme tally's have the form Name_(No.ofGames)_Wins:Losses.

I'm currently #90 odd. I beat a number 11 (at the time) and I've beat some people in the 20's and 30's ranks, and for the most part my losses are to people higher up (Fredtdh might confirm I almost almost got him twice in 2 out of 3 matches last night). Admittedly I've lost 3 (or 4?) games to people lower than me.

But what seems quite strange to me is that there are people with way worse win loss ratio's than me that seem to have higher scores, eg. #670316_(4)_0:4, and there are a tonne of people that have won one game and got 27 points straight off the bat. My first ranked game I lost, does that instantly set me up as a "weak" player (RE the "strength" system metioned in the faq), and thus it is much harder for me to get points for wins or something? (Another eg. #670305_(2)_1:1 where his first game was a win and what looks like a quick 57 points.) One thing that I instantly think of is, would updating the strength system daily (instead of weekly as the faq says) before the daily score tally improve how points are awarded?

Mabye another side illustration of this seems to be Xander. His strength is through the roof due to his (early) streak, even though from what I can see from a cursory glance at later games many of his opponents are way down the ladder and would argue against scoring that many points per game. Again, nothing personal Xander.

Something's wierd. I hope this helps.
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Postby bert_the_turtle » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:46 am

Potential parsing problem in this game: http://multiwinia-ladder.net/viewmatch.php?m=747
I didn't disconnect, I got dropped for reasons unknown (didn't lag out or anything).
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Postby jelco » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:54 pm

bert: At the moment, the parser doesn't distinguish between different reasons of disconnecting - if a client disconnects mid-game it will count as a disconnect. This is mainly due to the fact that your logfile entries of grief events were only added after I implemented this. I will try to take a look at it.

Imeanunoharm: The scoring system doesn't rely solely on the ranks of people you've played, and doesn't rely solely on win/loss/tie ratios. Furthermore, people's ranks are taken as equal for every match played in one rating period. A rating period starts at midnight on the night from Sunday to Monday and lasts a week - this means that, for every game played in this week, people's ranks are practically frozen. The fact that they change with every score recalculation is the result of the script assuming that it's the end of a rating period already, which is incorrect - however, I let it run this often anyway because having scores and ranks only change once a week is just not enough. I will try to comprehensively explain the workings of the system, but it's quite complicated so I might miss a few things in this short explanation.

Take into account that when you've lost a match, the scoring system can still note a win for you. Let's say you are user X and this is the outcome of a match you played:

A: 50
X: 40
C: 30
D: 20

You will lose from player A but will win from player C and D - you might not have won the match, but you still performed better than the other players. Because this is not as accurate as playing separate duels versus each of these people, an uncertainty value is taken into account for games with more than two people. Co-op matches are also quite special. Let's say you have these scores:

A1: 210
A2: 220
B1: 380
B2: 20

B1 may have the highest score, but team A wins and as such this game will count as the following 'duels': A1 wins from B1, A1 wins from B2, A2 wins from B1, A2 wins from B2. There are no 'duels' being counted within teams. Note that again, there's an uncertainty value counting here to make up for the lowered accuracy compared to separate duels.

Score differences make no difference. A player who beats someone else with 1000 to 10 will win as much as he does with a score of 500 vs 499. This is because Multiwinia is a game in which people can simply stop bothering to defend their hills (for example) when they've practically already won - the other player will be able to gain points, but it shouldn't help his case since he simply lost already.

I understand that the scoring system looks a bit confusing at first, but remember that creating a system which fairly compares people's performances in a game is nigh impossible and this is my attempt at coming very very close - it's a derivative of the widely used Glicko scoring system, with many changes inserted due to Multiwinia not being only 2-player, co-op, etc.

If something's still not clear, or if you have any suggestions about how to change this, please do it in this topic - I'd rather have an open discussion than a closed one over e-mail. ;)

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Postby Imeanunoharm » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:17 pm

jelco wrote:A rating period starts at midnight on the night from Sunday to Monday and lasts a week - this means that, for every game played in this week, people's ranks are practically frozen.



Ahhhh. This being the relevant sentence. Thanks for that. Makes more sense. I'm also not worried about in game scores (that was more of an aside because they were great matches and I realised later he was number 2), a defeat is a defeat, I agree.

Do you think it would be better to have a one day rating period, so that the ranks change relevantly to the scores and the games played that day? I think it's good to see yourself changing if you had a good day, but not so good for me today (I copped a couple of beatings, but I blame bad crates Image)
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Postby bert_the_turtle » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:58 pm

Now, really:
http://multiwinia-ladder.net/viewmatch.php?m=876
While I did disconnect, there was a sync error, and I was the cause. That should count as a valid excuse :)
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Postby TomCat39 » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:18 pm

I'd like to submit an idea for the display of the ladder.

I've looked and many are unregistered (ie some number in rank X instead of the registered name).

My thought is, can a display script be run to remove the non registered players from the ranks? Not remove them from the database or the calculations. Just hide them from the rankings and maybe shift all registered up accordingly. Then when they register it readds the display of their slot and shifts everything accordingly?

Does that make sense?

The thought is that only registered names are displayed in the rankings. I mean, seeing 65932 in rank 20 means nothing to me, but seeing Xander in rank 1 does.
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Postby Mas Tnega » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:00 pm

I'm not sure if it's been answered, but I doubt it would have occured to anyone until you gave the explanation:


How does the system factor Futurewinians and Evilinians?
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Postby xander » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:19 pm

Mas Tnega wrote:I'm not sure if it's been answered, but I doubt it would have occured to anyone until you gave the explanation:


How does the system factor Futurewinians and Evilinians?

Over IRC at one point, Jelco seemed to indicate that Evilinians and Futurewinians are also ranked in the database. Though I'm sure he can add more details. ;)

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Postby The GoldFish » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:53 pm

1) I would like all evilinian victories to be attributed to my account please.

2) I assume they function as a CPU player as the target of the multidual system Jelco explained above; if the evilinians win, then you lost, ok great, but you were beaten by all the real players who scored more than you, and you beat all the players who you scored more points than.
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Postby jelco » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:54 pm

bert: "I will implement it later" is what I said. ;) A CLIENT_QUIT equals a disconnect at the moment, there is no accounting whatsoever for any reason.

TomCat39: They are ranked like other users for several reasons, the most important one being that this should be a convincing reason for people to register. When playing on the official servers (and possibly Dedwinia test if bert implemented it) players get told their rank and score on the ladder on joining, and if you're not yet registered that should be something to take a look at. ;) Disabling these so-called 'keyshells' from showing up in the Leaderboard will lead a lot of people to thinking it is broken due to broken ranks, chaning ranks to fit this filtered list would not give the correct impression when browsing through stats (clicking on a keyshell profile link in a ranked match to find the rank to be 'N/A' doesn't seem correct). Overall, this is the most consistent way of showing it in my opinion, and I expect the list to show more and more actually registered names in due time anyway.

Mas, xander: Evilinians and Futurewinians are not ranked in the DB, that's somewhat of a sarcastic suggestion from someone which turned into a popular myth at some point. :P They will not participate in the score rankings' duels, meaning that you can still lose a match but win every single duel which represents that match (read my scoring system explanation post if this is a bit vague). They cannot be ranked as real users since their performance doesn't change over time - they're CPU players - but they're also not assigned a standard score - deciding on a fair score for each of them would require heavy data analysis at every score recalculation, probably. This is a debatable thing though, and I will go and see if there is another (better) way of implementing them.

EDIT: What TGF said is exactly correct. Point 2 that is. ;)

Now, back to repairing my fucked PC...

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Postby bert_the_turtle » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:29 am

jelco wrote:bert: "I will implement it later" is what I said. ;) A CLIENT_QUIT equals a disconnect at the moment, there is no accounting whatsoever for any reason.
Yes, yes, but the second case is slightly more complicated, and I don´t want you to forget about it :)
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Postby Mas Tnega » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:47 am

jelco wrote:Mas, xander: Evilinians and Futurewinians are not ranked in the DB, that's somewhat of a sarcastic suggestion from someone which turned into a popular myth at some point. :P They will not participate in the score rankings' duels, meaning that you can still lose a match but win every single duel which represents that match (read my scoring system explanation post if this is a bit vague). They cannot be ranked as real users since their performance doesn't change over time - they're CPU players - but they're also not assigned a standard score - deciding on a fair score for each of them would require heavy data analysis at every score recalculation, probably. This is a debatable thing though, and I will go and see if there is another (better) way of implementing them.
To be completely clear on this: If they win the match, does it still go down as a loss for the highest scoring human team?
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Postby jelco » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:54 am

Mas Tnega wrote:
jelco wrote:Mas, xander: Evilinians and Futurewinians are not ranked in the DB, that's somewhat of a sarcastic suggestion from someone which turned into a popular myth at some point. :P They will not participate in the score rankings' duels, meaning that you can still lose a match but win every single duel which represents that match (read my scoring system explanation post if this is a bit vague). They cannot be ranked as real users since their performance doesn't change over time - they're CPU players - but they're also not assigned a standard score - deciding on a fair score for each of them would require heavy data analysis at every score recalculation, probably. This is a debatable thing though, and I will go and see if there is another (better) way of implementing them.
To be completely clear on this: If they win the match, does it still go down as a loss for the highest scoring human team?

Here's where some definitions of 'loss' come into play. The loss counter of the highest scoring player will go up by one, but his score will not do anything other than increase - all of the subduels count as wins for this player.

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Postby TomCat39 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:46 am

jelco wrote:TomCat39: They are ranked like other users for several reasons, the most important one being that this should be a convincing reason for people to register.
Jelco


I am of the mind, not displaying them would be more incentive so that they could see how they are doing. I didn't realize the server was stating your rank from the DB when you joined. Just witnessed it today. With that in mind, a person can just memorize their number and since they are displayed, they know where they are at without others easily identifying them. Of course they could find out just by joining a ranking server too...

I understand the variance problem of what is stated via server and what would be shown if the unregistered were hidden. I wasn't aware of that when I was thinking about it all.

An interesting conundrum. Being the servers display the ranks upon joining, hiding them doesn't really motivate to join any more than not hiding them.

At this stage, I don't see any motivation to register except the desire to want to register to put a name to the number. Beyond that, I don't see any need since you can always see how you are doing once you know your number.

Interesting.

*ponders some more*
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xander

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