The Official Unofficial Multiwinia Ladder

Working on new maps for Multiwinia? Discuss!

Moderators: bert_the_turtle, jelco

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Postby jelco » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:35 pm

MarvintheParanoidAndroid wrote:The Multiwinia Ladder Unranked server (or at least, it's called something like that) should display your rank but won't count towards it, there's another dedicated server that's unranked but I forget which. In general the dedicated servers do count though (unless a demo or a CPU player is playing).

Fish Bowl (owned by bert) is unranked as well.

Cyan. wrote:you didn't show me a link. But anyway to explain in more detail to the other players. I won like 20 matches that day, won I even won from xander number 1. Xander on the toher thand played 2 matches, one against me wich he lost and won against the last player on the ladder wich he won. Now I go up 6 points and xander goes up 15 points. Strange I am wondering how this works? I, especially afer this post, think you have did this on purpose, and I am quite sure I am beter in blitz then xander becuase the last 3 or 4 times I played him I won. So me not deserving the number one spot is a stupid comment and you have to be an idiot to say that, atleast if you say it's right that xander has that spot.

Anyway form the bottom of my hearth, go fuck yourself. I really enjoyed some people while playing here, but fucking christ are there a lot of dickheads on this forum, ignorant, silly, boring, look at me I now stuff, people! Anyways have a good life, and I hope you're not glad that I am off this forum and game :). Special thanks to Mas, Giannis or Johannis (nice fighting over there :)) Lithilk and others I forgot I sure had fun to play with you cya!

EDIT: Oh eyah Bert almost forgot you :P, but in the end I think you're quite a nice guy, anyhow I liked to play with you.

You want a link? Here you are. I need to correct the lines a bit, but the numbers are correct, and they prove that you haven't gained any points since Monday.

Accusing me of doing that on purpose is by far the most idiotic thing you've said so far. Even if I wanted to, it'd be way too complicated to do that for one single player for me to even bother putting so much effort in it.

Is it strange you are wondering how it works? Not really, and I never said so. What I said is that you can find your answer if you'd decide to look around properly for a change, and I stand by this. I have never said the rating system is easy to understand, but neither have I ever refused to explain these workings because of that.

What makes you think that beating xander makes you a better player than him? If some player beats a world champion in any sport, the title isn't lost. Performance on the Ladder is measured by your overall results, not some occasional victories which might just as well be a lucky streak.

But really, I don't know what I'm going to achieve by writing this. You've proven to be an ignorant guy lacking sportsmanship, and the way you're trying to make up for that is to attack me. Just because I have the power to do things does not mean I use them, and I thought I was making that pretty clear when I gave you your first warning a few days ago. However, I'm suspecting you of trying to provoke me into actually using my powers, and believe me, unlike you I am not stupid enough to fall for that.

If you have lousy comments to make, it's fine with me, but if you are incorrectly attacking people you should know that I don't appreciate cowardly comments like that. My goal with the Ladder is to add a competitive side to the game, which most players seem to appreciate - if you don't like it you're welcome to make a point about it, as long as it's valid. If that doesn't fit with your style, you are free to leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

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Postby jelco » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:47 pm

Rating history graphs are up. Sorry for the delay, I promised to have it done yesterday but school got in the way. :)

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Postby Mas Tnega » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Please to be with the considering Weight Crate locations. There is no fairness whatsoever in Random. The so-called positional fight for them is a lie, because where they land requires an all-or-nothing from one party, and "Ooh" *pick up* from another 90% of the time. More to the point, 90% of them go to the same player.
If this is based on xander's notion of whoever's winning should be the winner, reject it. The whole point of the game is that it isn't decided by the first 10 seconds of the game, but EVERY SINGLE 2P MAP is *exactly* like this without the catch up mechanisms. A single crate may tip the balance in the case of something close to a tie, but it'll take half a dozen to come back from having half as many spawns when handicap's off, unless one happens to be armour, and another reinforcements.
Random doesn't make the game more like Chess, it makes it Chess if you flipped a coin to see who goes next; statistically you each get as many turns, but in reality whoever got to 20 turns first has already won.
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Postby jelco » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:29 pm

Are you saying I need to switch the servers to Weighted crate drop mode? Because I honestly don't really see where you're going with this. ;)

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Postby Mas Tnega » Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:20 pm

Consider it, is all. Discuss, yell, tell me why I'm wrong. Because I really don't think Basic-Random is even conducive to a game of Multiwinia.
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Postby xander » Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:14 pm

Mas raises a good argument with regards to weighted crate drops, and I think I have to reconsider my previous statements on that issue. On the other hand, I am still not convinced with regards to basic crates only. In a tournament game, the person who is winning should be the winner. Mas has pointed out that a less skilled player can win by starting just a hair faster than their opponent, and that the more skilled player should be given a chance to fight back with crates. However, I still feel that a lucky meteor shower, infection, or nuke barrage can tip the balance too far, and that basic crate only are a better test of player skill in a tournament setting.

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Postby Mas Tnega » Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:39 pm

I think Basic Crates is fair. Putting the crates in order of how scary they are to pick up, we have:

Practically a godsend:
Armour - Kept alive and filled, this ruins opposition. You don't know where it's going until it's halfway there and by then you might not have much to defend against it. The only flaw is that you can only be so far behind in terms of position before it becomes more useful as something to attract grenades. This of course only really applies to CTS, KOTH, and DOM where they aren't nearly so easy to acquire, or limited.

Initiates comebacks:
Reinforcements - Almost never useless, truly brilliant if you need something to load into the armour.
Squad - You may need a start point to put it down, but it happily travels from spawn A to target B in a timely manner and under competent control almost certainly deals serious damage to target B. If you want to stop someone lifting off in RR and don't want to use your man-power, get a turret on their base and put down a squad.

Secures leads:
Gun Turret - It can help you wrest control of an area, wiping out any number of enemies, and then it'll get captured and it all happens to you. That or they just bomb it. Takes more thought to place well than it does to overcome it.
Airstrike - It kills turrets (usually), shuts off spawns (briefly), wipes out formations (maybe), flushes the enemy out into gunfire (in the right circumstances), and ...spreads MWs out to save the enemy the effort of micromanaging them to be harder to surround.

Not immediately useful:
Engineer - Recovery tool. You've broken the enemy's grip on the spawn point and you're almost out of MWs. Enter the Engineer. Then he'll be needed where there are souls but no enemies. This place will be the arse-end of nowhere and the Engineer will still die somehow. Pray for a Magical Forest not too far away, pray it doesn't burn. While you're doing that, I'll pray for a million pounds.
Magical Forest - Burn me! Burn me now! Burn me and purge from the world all those foolhardy enough to walk beneath my canopies! Seriously though, throwing yourself at a forest where the enemy is hopelessly entrenched and waiting for an unlucky grenade is the most spectacular loss of life you'll see in basic crates. This one is generally so bad that you think "Oh sh-" when you get it. It's a waste of a crate, and it's a major liability if it's anywhere near you.

Go on, fault that line up, I dare you.
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An idea for visualising the ladder

Postby moth » Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:44 pm

I'd like to see a diagram of how everyone's rank has changed over time. Something like a grid of dots, one row per player, one column for each rating period, with lines connecting the dot for each player's rank in each column to the dot for their rank in the next column, and the lines labled at both ends with the player's name.

Possible refinements:
Add lines representing matches: for each match, draw a really faint line from the looser's dot in the previous column to the winner's dot in the column for that rating period. Players who loose see their score spreading out and dissipating, those who win see score flowing to them from the loosers. I'd really like to see this.

Make the size or colour of player lines and dots a function of their rating deviation and/or score.

Make the thickness of match lines a function of how much they effect the score of each player.

Thanks for putting so much work into making the ladder.

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Re: An idea for visualising the ladder

Postby jelco » Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:02 pm

moth wrote:I'd like to see a diagram of how everyone's rank has changed over time. Something like a grid of dots, one row per player, one column for each rating period, with lines connecting the dot for each player's rank in each column to the dot for their rank in the next column, and the lines labled at both ends with the player's name.

Possible refinements:
Add lines representing matches: for each match, draw a really faint line from the looser's dot in the previous column to the winner's dot in the column for that rating period. Players who loose see their score spreading out and dissipating, those who win see score flowing to them from the loosers. I'd really like to see this.

Make the size or colour of player lines and dots a function of their rating deviation and/or score.

Make the thickness of match lines a function of how much they effect the score of each player.

These are very ambitious ideas, but I'm afraid they're both not going to work. There are so many players and matches respectively, both graphs are going to be one giant mess of lines and dots which can in no way be read by anyone. However, I can see where you're going so I might be able to come up with a compromise. This will probably be something along the lines of a list with people a particular player has played against during the most recent rating period. I will see what I can do. ;)

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Postby Mas Tnega » Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:35 am

In the interest of raising discussion about 4P (and dick waving, but that's a given):

This match result. Huge exaggeration of player dynamics, or valid case study? Gigantic skill gap, or an long and interesting series of plain bad moves?
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Re: An idea for visualising the ladder

Postby moth » Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:48 pm

jelco wrote:These are very ambitious ideas, but I'm afraid they're both not going to work. There are so many players and matches respectively, both graphs are going to be one giant mess of lines and dots which can in no way be read by anyone. However, I can see where you're going so I might be able to come up with a compromise. This will probably be something along the lines of a list with people a particular player has played against during the most recent rating period. I will see what I can do. ;)

Jelco


A huge mass of lines - yes. Intimidating - yes. Totally unreadable - not necessarily. Straight lines work well on complex diagrams because you only need to see part of them clearly to see where they are going. With enough pixels and (especially for the match lines) a non-linear blending algorithm that doesn't saturate too easily, i still think it could work.

I think a lot of the unintuitiveness of the ladder comes from the way everyone's score depends on (approximately) everyone, so i was trying to think up a way of getting a sense of what is going on with the whole ladder. I wouldn't hope to be able to pick out every individual match, but i think you could get a good sense of who is shooting up, diving down, drifting one way or the other or just fluctuating, and think the way the match lines fan in and out of each dot would make it clear who is climbing by defeating a few higher-ranked players, or a lot of lower players, or just because the players above them are loosing to others, etc.

That said, it is ambitious, and maybe diagrams visualising the update formulae separately for each player would be a better way of showing what is happening.

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Re: An idea for visualising the ladder

Postby jelco » Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:03 pm

moth wrote:A huge mass of lines - yes. Intimidating - yes. Totally unreadable - not necessarily. Straight lines work well on complex diagrams because you only need to see part of them clearly to see where they are going. With enough pixels and (especially for the match lines) a non-linear blending algorithm that doesn't saturate too easily, i still think it could work.

I think a lot of the unintuitiveness of the ladder comes from the way everyone's score depends on (approximately) everyone, so i was trying to think up a way of getting a sense of what is going on with the whole ladder. I wouldn't hope to be able to pick out every individual match, but i think you could get a good sense of who is shooting up, diving down, drifting one way or the other or just fluctuating, and think the way the match lines fan in and out of each dot would make it clear who is climbing by defeating a few higher-ranked players, or a lot of lower players, or just because the players above them are loosing to others, etc.

That said, it is ambitious, and maybe diagrams visualising the update formulae separately for each player would be a better way of showing what is happening.

Phelanpt quoted a line a while ago which illustrates the problem best: A rating system that is fair or one that is easy to understand: make your choice. Or, as I would say: pick your poison.

The difficulty with the scoring system that the Ladder uses is that it will never be easy to understand, and any attempts at visualising will either be so complex that the method for reading the graph will need a manual itself, or extremely verbose.

Just to give you a better impression of the difficulties I'm facing, I'll present you with some less abstract problems. For one, there's about 150 matches added to the database every day, between rougly 950 players. That count includes all unregistered keys but excludes all CPU and Demo players which can't be distinguished from each other. Visualising all of the matches every day is going to be a severe problem unless I bring the resolution of the graph to something on the scale of 5000x5000. (That might be slightly exaggerated, but you get the point.) Other than that, the matches don't really have influence on their own (only in combination with other 'simultaneously' played matches), and what's more, due to the nature of the Ladder's premature mid-week recalculations, the moment they influence the scores (if there is any given moment) shifts as time progresses.

The algorithm is not only very complex, it's also very heavy. The script that recalculates the scores currently takes 5 minutes to execute, and this will only increase over time as more matches are added to the database. If I want to show the execution of these algorithms, it's not only very expansive, I have to either save a document showing the process for every single user (updated on every recalculation) or I have to let the script re-run every time someone views the page in question, and neither is a preferable option.

The first thing I'm going to try (which steers into this direction a little bit) is a version of the rating history graph which allows overlaying of several users, so that they can be compared. I think it's best to wait until that is finished before I try to have a go at the more complex graphs you've suggested, such as the match connections. (It doesn't seem like an impossible task though, to create a per-user graph displaying all opponents played in an RP with lines indicating victory and defeats.)

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Postby jelco » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:40 pm

While I'm struggling with the comparative rating graph, I've enabled a page which has been my spare-time-killing activity for the past week, one for spectating. If the 'Current Games' page lists a game in progress on an Official Ladder Server (including the unranked one) it will show a link next to the server name. Clicking that link will take you to a page that shows data for games currently active on any of the Ladder servers. It will show you everything you can see on a match details page, except scores.

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Postby MadMorgan » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:33 pm

Hey Jelco - thanks for all the work on the ladder!

I have a feature suggestion. I'd be interested to see my match history against individual opponents.

I imagine an additional filter on the "view played matches" page for entering an opponents name. The url would be something like: matches.php?user=MadMorgan&enemy=Jelco

When logged into the ladder a "view played matches against me" link could be included on opponent profiles, too.

I'll have to chat you up about VJing some time in another channel...

Thanks again!

~ Mad Morgan
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Postby jelco » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:48 pm

That is actually a pretty cool idea, and not too hard to implement. I'll have a quick go at it right now for fun, but I can't promise I'll have it working by tonight. ;)

Looking forward to talking about VJing again, been a while since someone last asked me about that. :)

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