Is this a game of luck or skill?

Post your ideas on where the future evolution of Multiwinia should lead

Moderators: bert_the_turtle, jelco

Is it luck or skill prevails in game?

Luck
9
19%
Skill
39
81%
 
Total votes: 48
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bert_the_turtle
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Postby bert_the_turtle » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:19 am

moth wrote:Ha, ha - what ever made you think that?
Me? Nothing :) * points at propaganda master xander *

And to be fair, I could have used that squad better.
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Postby xander » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:30 am

moth wrote:I really like handicapping - i think it makes games more stable, so they are in contention for longer, which gives time for crate luck to even out a bit and skill to triumph. Without it games would be decided sooner by smaller, more random details.

moth

Then don't play on servers with those settings. The point that I was trying to make was that, in a tournament situation, luck and handicapping should be removed as much as possible. Handicapping allows a player with less skill to more easily win (in theory), and a tournament is supposed to test skill.

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Postby moth » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:01 am

It's not just crates that introduce randomness; grenade throws, laser shots and multiwinian scatter are all subject to some chance. If the system is unstable, small random fluctuations can have effects that grow and decide the battle. If it is stable then it takes more consistent application of skill to reach victory. In my humble rank 29 opinion.

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Postby Mas Tnega » Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:15 am

xander wrote:To that end, I would like to propose a set of "tournament mode" settings for two player games. First, basic crates only. A well placed squad or turret can change the balance of power, but two skilled players ought to be able to overcome those obstacles.
It really depends on the turret's position (I can think of situations where it's vital that you take it out, and still impossible to justify using MWs to do it) and getting the crate to respond to it, but in Basic, yes, you should generally get the anti-turret if you can hold enough areas (My opinion of 10-20 seconds, basic, weighted is favourable for this reason).

A nuke, on the other hand, can lead to a lasting and irrevocable handicap.
But it takes FOREVER to send it off. The correct response to this is to evacuate the area and use your presumed erstwhile defensive presence to go ruin someone's shit. What are the enemy going to do, move in and eat several portions of 20 kT?

Second, for the modes that matter, there should not be handicapping for spawn points. If you manage to grab a bunch of spawns, while your opponent idles, I think that you have demonstrated your skill.
To some extent, agreed, but this factor exists to stop the blatantly obvious rush strategy of maximising how many spawns you can get in a given time while the other guy tries to hold you back from . For example, I don't think Hamburger Hill entirely works on the premise that it's five spawns apiece and then you fight for dominance. Sure, that split can work out in an intuitive manner, but there's no reason for the player on the mountainous side to bother when the spawns that are likely to doom them in enemy hands all happen to be somewhere else completely.

Handicapping is meant to balance out differences in skill, whereas tournaments are meant to demonstrate skill. Finally, random crates, for the same reason as no handicapping.
Random crates inherently favours the one covering more land, which isn't always a product of successful combat.


Me? I'd rather see something that won't happen, so what you're describing is good enough.

*Suggestion: Disable Plague and Infection, which are almost always utterly devastating, depending mostly on where it lands but also in part on how desperately you needed an edge. That crap about making people more shy about the power ups is completely negated by the wide scale of how beneficial crates can be making it very foolish to ever risk someone else picking up a crate that should have been yours, and you can't unman a building, which is where it's the biggest fuck over of all! At least substitute it for an unplacable airstrike in those situations to make it look less completely harsh. Dark Forests and Ants Nests don't bother me nearly as much as one can be burned away and the other just needs a better attitude to turtling. I'm still not convinced there's any pattern to Futurewinians' behaviour when sucking up MWs that makes it bad for you specifically to pick it up.
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Postby xander » Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:16 am

moth wrote:It's not just crates that introduce randomness; grenade throws, laser shots and multiwinian scatter are all subject to some chance. If the system is unstable, small random fluctuations can have effects that grow and decide the battle. If it is stable then it takes more consistent application of skill to reach victory. In my humble rank 29 opinion.

moth.

The thing is that lasers and grenades are tossed about a lot, and the random variation approaches some limit. The little fluctuations in laser fire and grenade throwing don't make that much difference. If you are smart, and maneuver your troops properly, you can generally win against a similarly sized force. It is background noise.

Furthermore, handicapping doesn't really kick in until it is too late, and then it just serves to keep the losing player around longer. By the time you are getting extra units from handicapping, you have already lost.

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Postby xander » Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:21 am

Mas Tnega wrote:[
A nuke, on the other hand, can lead to a lasting and irrevocable handicap.
But it takes FOREVER to send it off. The correct response to this is to evacuate the area and use your presumed erstwhile defensive presence to go ruin someone's shit. What are the enemy going to do, move in and eat several portions of 20 kT?

I was thinking specifically of Confrontation Point. If a player gets a nuke, they can cede the middle ground, fill two armour with DGs, and not place their turrets. Meanwhile, the other player is still trying to capture the middle flag, or is doing something else. Once well prepared, the nuke is launched at the one spawn point on the map. The other player does not have enough time to collect up resources to be able to take the middle spawn, as the nukes hit within a minute, and it is going to take at least two minutes to get a new turret, or get more DGs to spawn. Even worse, if the player getting nuked is protecting the spawn point with their two turrets, those are destroyed, the opposing player rushes in two armour loads of DGs, sets up two turrets, and basically has an untakable position (unless you manage to grab a nuke yourself). This situation is even worse with a meteor shower, which hits faster.

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Postby Mas Tnega » Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:55 am

xander wrote:I was thinking specifically of Confrontation Point. If a player gets a nuke, they can cede the middle ground, fill two armour with DGs, and not place their turrets. Meanwhile, the other player is still trying to capture the middle flag, or is doing something else.
You ceded the middle ground and there is no strict requirement for me to be present in it so I assume in this time of prepartion, I've taken the flag and spawn, put an officer at my trunkport on GOTO, gathered 200 MWs somewhat faster than you, and don't really care so much to keep a great deal on the flag. I only ever use gun turrets to attack from the middle spawn on that map (and only one, strangely enough), so that had damned better be destroyed if you manage to get the spawn.

Once well prepared, the nuke is launched at the one spawn point on the map. The other player does not have enough time to collect up resources to be able to take the middle spawn, as the nukes hit within a minute, and it is going to take at least two minutes to get a new turret, or get more DGs to spawn
Same to you. I'm sure I've had my fill of that spawn by now.

Even worse, if the player getting nuked is protecting the spawn point with their two turrets, those are destroyed, the opposing player rushes in two armour loads of DGs, sets up two turrets, and basically has an untakable position (unless you manage to grab a nuke yourself). This situation is even worse with a meteor shower, which hits faster.
Congratulations, you just forced me to turn my spawnpoint into a pawn sacrifice. Thanks for the homeflag! I genuinely don't see how you expect to have my balls in a vice when you've put so much into a position that only means something in a war of attrition.

The Meteor Shower variant, I might concede.
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Postby Pinky » Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:04 am

If we wanted a mode where it was all skill, no crates and specified powerups (guaranteed, identical reinforcements, ie. Both players get shields, both players get airstrike, etc.) it wouldn't be too difficult to make.
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Postby bert_the_turtle » Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:08 am

That, or drop the crates in no man's land (between three armies, if possible) and show their contents in advance.
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Postby MikeTheWookiee » Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:47 pm

In short -
When I win, it's skill,
When I lose, it's luck.
8)
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Postby jelco » Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:47 pm

Mas Tnega wrote:It doesn't however fully utilise its dynamics. Whoever comes first is said to have won all three of their duels.

This is actually not entirely correct - a duel between people who ended in 2nd (guy A) and 4th (guy B) place for example will have some compensation for the win/defeat respectively. The guy ending in 2nd place is counted as having been assisted by the players in 1st and 3rd place, with the latter having assisted to a smaller degree because he ranked below guy A whereas the winner of the match ranked above guy A - because both ranked above guy B they are both counted as having assisted in B's defeat. When guys A and B are ranked 2nd and 3rd place resp. for example, the guy in 4th place is not considered to have helped in the duel A vs. B in any way.

Just wanted to point that out. ;)

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Postby Shwart!! » Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:41 am

xander wrote:Furthermore, handicapping doesn't really kick in until it is too late, and then it just serves to keep the losing player around longer. By the time you are getting extra units from handicapping, you have already lost.

xander


Not always. I played a 4p game a few days ago, coop, Holy Tree, no limit Dom. The plan was that I'd be teamed with my brother, who immediately desynced instead, leaving me with a useless CPU teammate. I was getting handicap forces from 16 through 64 minutes into the game, when I finally managed to return to a contending-force position. 14 minutes later, I was victorious. I was generally at a 3:7 spawn disadvantage during the main part of the game.
In some ways, handicapping actually reduces the amount of luck involved; a good player, who's been reduced to a handicapped state through luck, will generally be able to make a comeback. A player reduced to such a state from an opponents level of skill is toast.

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Postby Mas Tnega » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:39 pm

Fun fact: Played on the Duel server four times. Here's how they went:

Game 1: I got a powerup and the other guy ragequit when the squad broke his offence and spawns.
Game 2: I got a powerup and the other was dead in under 3 minutes.
Game 3: I got all the powerups and won.
Game 4: I made the wrong opening move and in less than 20 seconds could only win if the powerups were in my favour. They weren't.


The format is complete and utter shit.
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Postby Lelouch » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:45 pm

Mas Tnega wrote:Fun fact: Played on the Duel server four times. Here's how they went:

Game 1: I got a powerup and the other guy ragequit when the squad broke his offence and spawns.
Game 2: I got a powerup and the other was dead in under 3 minutes.
Game 3: I got all the powerups and won.
Game 4: I made the wrong opening move and in less than 20 seconds could only win if the powerups were in my favour. They weren't.


The format is complete and utter shit.


Hence the prove that this game is luck based rather than skill based. Cant believe im losing polls 10 to 1.
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Postby Mas Tnega » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:11 am

In the interest of fairness:

Game 5: (Barriers DOM) I got a crate in his solar panel area (after a fight), used those reinforcements to take over everything. Then I picked up a squad near the point between our main spawns, ended the contention there and annihilated his main spawn. He left after that.

Game 6: (Bitter Front KOTH) Skillful victory as far as I can tell. Only one fight over a crate occured. He got three armours and a turret (planted at home), I got an armour, an airstrike, a squad and maybe some other stuff I can't remember.
Map is supposedly unbalanced. Starting on the side I almost never start on (and I've played this map a fair few times), and having to fight uphill to break into the far right, I'm not so convinced.

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