Achievments Vs. Computer

Post your ideas on where the future evolution of Multiwinia should lead

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xander
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Postby xander » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:32 am

mhmm wrote:Then make the hard difficulty for the computer on multiwinia more difficult.

That is, perhaps, far easier said than done.

And, because I think I am coming across as more hard line than I mean to, I am not suggesting that all achievements should be really difficult. As has already been pointed out, many of them are quite simple (if tedious). However, I just don't see how defeating the AI really counts as an achievement -- I don't see how it implies that you have achieved much of anything. Even team-nuking is more difficult against a real person -- you have to weigh your chances of winning (or simply concede that you are not going to win) in a situation where it has an effect upon another person. Against a real person, you might be less inclined to mess up a game for your ally -- against a computer, there is no consequence.

The same is true of the other achievements -- you could set the time limit to infinity, take over most of a dom map, then position several formations around a single spawn point and blast away at CPU enemies until the cows come home to get the achievements focused on killing lots of enemies. You could play each map with a one minute time limit to get explorer.

By your own argument, achievements are meant to get people to explore the game more. My argument, which is that achievements are meta-goals designed to keep people playing, is similar. In either case, playing against the AI is not getting people to play the game more, it is only getting them to find loopholes. An achievement against a real person means something, whereas it means nothing against the AI.

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Postby mhmm » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:03 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V86atl1P ... gspot.com/

People already farm for the achievements. The current system doesn't exactly stop that. I want to try and actually earn them with the computer. This is a good enough meta goal. It is an achievement for me. A person should be able to choose the way they want to play the game. I would play the game more with the achievements that way.
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Postby TheRileyDuo » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:50 am

mhmm wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V86atl1P86o&eurl=http://smacklefunky.blogspot.com/

People already farm for the achievements. The current system doesn't exactly stop that. I want to try and actually earn them with the computer. This is a good enough meta goal. It is an achievement for me. A person should be able to choose the way they want to play the game. I would play the game more with the achievements that way.


But they don't build achievements for you, they build them for everybody. It's much more thrilling to get an achievement in Multiplayer only games than it is against the computer. For one thing, no one's there to celebrate with you when you get it against the computer.
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Postby NeoThermic » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:58 am

TheRileyDuo wrote:I think his point is that even the achievements that you just listed in jest seem like reasonable achievements to have in game.


But they're not feasible achievements.

Selecting every MW would need a few rules, else if the player is quick enough on some maps they can select all their MWs at the start. Tracking each selected and unselected unit would take time (as in knowing that a MW hasn't been selected in contrast to the rest of them), and it would detract from the game play going for this achievement.

To get a turret to 1k kills (lets start by ignoring the manual control aspect), you need a map or conditions where the opponent has enough material to throw at this turret. This is only feasible on AS maps, RR maps and possibly some Blitz maps where the attacker has a continuous supply of re-enforcements. In CTS, KoTH and Dom you don't get turrets often enough to make it feasible to gain 1k kills (considering that you'd need to do that in the time limit of the map, 5 to 10 minutes is not enough time).


Playing a game without the use of officers makes you vulnerable to being wiped out by a player who uses formations to attack your base. It detracts from the game play going for this achievement to the point where it'd be easy to wipe you out.


TheRileyDuo wrote:If that post is vague and confusing, please don't be afraid to ask for clarification.


I'm not sure which post "that" referrers to, but don't patronise me.

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Postby bert_the_turtle » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:41 am

mhmm wrote:People already farm for the achievements.
This particular achievement there literally cries "You want to get me? Well, either play for 200 hours (less if you concentrate on Assault defense) regular games or find a way to farm me!". It's OK if people who really want to get it without turning into Zombiewinians farm it. I don't think it's a valid point saying that just because one achievement can be farmed (or two or three; I suppose once they actually work, Explorer and Master of Multiwinia are even easier to get), all should be.

Now, don't get me wrong. I have nothing against it if some additional achievements can be gotten by playing against the CPU, and I wouldn't mind harder CPU opponents either, even if that's done by making them cheat. In fact, copies of the existing achievements with the requirement that you have to play against an uber-hard CPU would be a good idea. But the multiplayer achievements that are already there should stay multiplayer. This is a multiplayer game, after all. Plus, changing existing achievements, making them easier to get, is a foolproof way to alienate those who already struggled to get them the hard way.
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Postby TomCat39 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:24 pm

bert_the_turtle wrote:
mhmm wrote:People already farm for the achievements.
This particular achievement there literally cries "You want to get me? Well, either play for 200 hours (less if you concentrate on Assault defense) regular games or find a way to farm me!". It's OK if people who really want to get it without turning into Zombiewinians farm it. I don't think it's a valid point saying that just because one achievement can be farmed (or two or three; I suppose once they actually work, Explorer and Master of Multiwinia are even easier to get), all should be.

Now, don't get me wrong. I have nothing against it if some additional achievements can be gotten by playing against the CPU, and I wouldn't mind harder CPU opponents either, even if that's done by making them cheat. In fact, copies of the existing achievements with the requirement that you have to play against an uber-hard CPU would be a good idea. But the multiplayer achievements that are already there should stay multiplayer. This is a multiplayer game, after all. Plus, changing existing achievements, making them easier to get, is a foolproof way to alienate those who already struggled to get them the hard way.


I was of the impression this is what was suggested. Additional achievements for CPU over and above the ones there. Not changing the existing ones to be CPU. Maybe I misunderstood the OP?
"Now, stop being a douche to the newbie, and run along."

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Postby Nimbus » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:32 pm

bert_the_turtle wrote:Now, don't get me wrong. I have nothing against it if some additional achievements can be gotten by playing against the CPU, and I wouldn't mind harder CPU opponents either, even if that's done by making them cheat. In fact, copies of the existing achievements with the requirement that you have to play against an uber-hard CPU would be a good idea. But the multiplayer achievements that are already there should stay multiplayer. This is a multiplayer game, after all. Plus, changing existing achievements, making them easier to get, is a foolproof way to alienate those who already struggled to get them the hard way.


Idea:

Easy, Medium, Hard, Evil.
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Postby Mas Tnega » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:51 pm

Nimbus wrote:Idea:

Easy, Medium, Hard, Evil.
Given how difficulty manifests, I'd love to face this OCD machine in the ring of honour.
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Postby atra » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:43 am

The GoldFish wrote:Why do achievements need to all be hard? They're achievements. Some can be easy, some can be hard, some can be inbetween, and some can be ridiculously hard and convoluted.



The problem I have with Multiwinia achievements is that (with the exceptions of Master Player [which will ultimately trickle down to every online player], Carnage and Genocide) all the achievements are ridiculously hard and convoluted. Ridiculously hard in the sense that you have to actually find people online to play, which can take a very long time, and convoluted in the sense that (aside from Dominator and Hoarder) the achievement list doesn't state that you have to even be playing online. I have completed Hail to the King, Unclad Skies, Aggravated Assault and Blitzmaster many times, and confusingly many times in Multiplayer mode, but as there are so few people online I get bored of waiting and just play the CPU.

Not that I have a problem with a multiplayer game limiting its achievements to online matches (I assume that Left 4 Dead will do the same). But by not stating the full rules of the achievements it gives quite a let down when you finally complete the stated requirements and nothing happens. It feels a bit like the game's broken. If the stated requirements had 'in an online match' tagged on the end then it would be fine (note: not 'in multiplayer', as you can be in multiplayer and not play a human). Still ridiculously hard, but not annoyingly convoluted. And games are supposed to be hard, and aren't supposed to be annoying.
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Postby cheesemoo0 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:01 am

Hard and annoying can sometimes be the same thing.

I don't understand why you are making this into such a big deal. Achievements need to be hard and come far between for the player. This is what makes it an achievement. Multiwinia is primarily a multiplayer game so should the achievements be such. Even playing the CPU on hard does not present much of a problem once you figure out all the controls thus destroying the accomplishment I.E. achievement factor if they were enabled.

I have seen several complaints about people not having anyone to play against. I have personally never had any problem finding anyone. Once I join a server it usually fills up in five minutes max. I remember trying to play Defcon after it had been out for about the same time and having to wait much longer.

Changing the existing achievements is not an answer.
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Postby Major Cooke » Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:47 am

And then again, those who buy the Steam version and replace it with a non-Steam version lose all their achievements, and there is no "achievements" option anymore. :(

I was on 200k kills for Genocide too... I even did the 2000 kills Carnage thing, and I just have no achievements at all. Talk about looking low... I have no bragging rights. Grrr... :?

And the reason why I had to was because it was for the SpaceNavigator beta. *sigh*...
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Postby bert_the_turtle » Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:52 am

Err, what? Your achievements aren't lost, they're just invisible.
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Postby elDiablo » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:26 am

If you re-download from Steam, you'll have all of your achievements up to the point where you installed the non-steam version. However, any progress you towards any achievement while using the non-Steam version won't count. But you haven't "lost" anything, and your hard work will not have been for nothing!
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Postby atra » Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:20 pm

atra wrote:Not that I have a problem with a multiplayer game limiting its achievements to online matches


cheesemoo0 wrote:I don't understand why you are making this into such a big deal. [...] Multiwinia is primarily a multiplayer game so should the achievements be such.


Um... agreed? You phrased that as though I'd said the opposite.

cheesemoo0 wrote:Changing the existing achievements is not an answer.


I don't think the achievements should be changed, I think the phrasing of the achievement requirements should be. Because they're confusing and imprecise. Which is a reason to change something.
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Postby Major Cooke » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:16 pm

elDiablo wrote:If you re-download from Steam, you'll have all of your achievements up to the point where you installed the non-steam version. However, any progress you towards any achievement while using the non-Steam version won't count. But you haven't "lost" anything, and your hard work will not have been for nothing!


Well, I'm sure not going to bother going back, because then I'd lose my SpaceNavigator mouse support. And this thing is too damn cool to give up. XD

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