Unending Dawn Stategic problem

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Kuth
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Unending Dawn Stategic problem

Postby Kuth » Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:06 am

The situation:

Unending Dawn is a three player map. On Domination, there is one spawn point between you and each of your opponents, with one in the center. The map is rougly triangular, meaning there are two directions one can take for expansion.

The problem:

As player three, Player one and Player two decide to move in your direction, ignoring each other and grabbing the spawn points closest to them, facing you. Taking the center won't really help, since one player will attack the center and the other will attack your home spawn, negating most of your forces and taking away the advantage of massed forces.

It's only Now that the enemy begins to notice each other and fight opposite of you on the field. Crates do not appear until your home spawn is already in peril.

These are games against the AI, but this problem can arise in MP as well.

The Question:

What do you do in the situation outlined above? How do you deal with getting attacked by both opponents on this 3-way map?
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Postby TheRileyDuo » Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:06 am

This problem is heighten by the fact that the AI seems to make their initial moves the same everytime. At least for this map.

I would send 3 Multiwinians to the center, and then everyone else to meet one of the other forces. You should get reinforcements before the initial forces get to you. Basically, you do need to run for the center spawn. However, you can also set up a few formations around your base. The maps are generally designed so that home base spawn points have a small incline around them. So you should be able to defend against at least a temporary wave.

However, you can't win if 2 guys have it out for you.
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Postby RabidZombie » Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:12 pm

This is why I don't particularly like this map. I always seem to get picked on. :(

The same problem can exist in the Holy Tree style 4 player maps, but the problem isn't quite so bad as the middle points are easier to defend.
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Postby Mas Tnega » Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:51 pm

I played a match like this just now. It came down to sudden death, and I ended up in second place. This was against AI, naturally.


What I did: Starting MWs: Left 3, Right 3, Centre 3, All the way over there, the other 31 if I don't fuck up sending three lots of 3.
Attack left and right with reinforcements almost constantly to prevent the final push.
Attack someone's main spawns with the other two to get someone to attack, and then try to defend.

What happened: A ridiculous game of push and shove where AI1 and AI2 would alternately pick on my spawns on the left and right, both succeeding but never holding onto the victory long enough to stop me from defending my main spawns and recovering. What helped most was two lots of nukes that just happened to clear out the spawn that AI1 just happened to have nothing else going to. Eventually AI1 got sick of being nuked all the time and kicked AI2's arse, while I grabbed the massively disputed spawns to put me in second place. The game mostly saw me dancing around the ranks, as I did indeed a spend a lot of time in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, even though the score was at multiple stages 5-2-2 to AI2. AI1 Eggs might have made some kind of contribution somewhere too.
AI2 was eliminated at Sudden Death in spite of having all the flame turrets and nukes throughout the game.
AI1's access to AI2's spawns wasn't cut off by flameturrets the whole time, and made an easy grab.



Also, hehe, Holy Tree. That map can be unfair for exactly two of the players.
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Postby Cyan. » Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:54 pm

I agree totally that this is a problem, it does not only count for Holy tree as well, but alos monuments to heaven and more maps, really any map/ mode I guess. Some more then others but if you get picked on unequelly you ain't gonna win most of the time.

Some things you can do, most simple thing is to attend your enemy on the benefit his other enemy will get.
When moving to the middle move straight ahead to the spawn at the same lenght, or attack someone's home spawn if you think it will help you saving yours. Hoefully in this situation the 2 other players will fight over your home spawn giving you time to build up forces and look for a weak spawn to conquer, but as you said your middle spawn will always be particuliar vunurable to attacks, so my best advise would be don't fight over it just use it as long as you can and move to another spawn.
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Postby bert_the_turtle » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:33 pm

This is a fundamental problem with all complex games for more than two players.

Since there is only one winner in the end, There is a simple solution, fortunately. Say this:
"To the enemy on my right: I will take the spawn point between us. I will use all of my available force. If you fight for that spawn, we will both lose. So don't."
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Postby Cyan. » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:37 pm

I agree with bert this is the most simpel solution tho I would fight it anyway haha
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Postby Mas Tnega » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:39 pm

bert_the_turtle wrote:This is a fundamental problem with all complex games for more than two players.

Since there is only one winner in the end, There is a simple solution, fortunately. Say this:
"To the enemy on my right: I will take the spawn point between us. I will use all of my available force. If you fight for that spawn, we will both lose. So don't."
To which the other guys says:
Nothing.

He just takes the centre and goes for your spawn.
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Postby bert_the_turtle » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:47 pm

Who said you should do as you say? :)
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Postby Mas Tnega » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:00 pm

The guy that takes the spawn between them, whomever it turns out to be.
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Postby Major Cooke » Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:25 pm

Now that you've managed to figure out how to pwn the other two AI, add evilwinians to all the empty spawn points and hold off until the other 2 teams wipe the evilwinians, by defending your spawns with formations.

And then after that, replace the middle evilwinians with those crazy-ass futurewinians and let hell break loose! I can't defeat the futurewinians, it's the only animals that I can't dominate. So bring in retribution mode, and when everyone dies but the futurewinians, give them hell. They'll be given the WORST of crates most of the time including the plague, infectious outbreak, and randomiser... if you get enough MW's away from the randomizer spot, who knows, you might get lucky enough to retake a spawn point and get uneliminated. Or you can just pull them off to the empty parts of the map and use them to slowly open crates.

Use eggs! Futurewinians can't do a damn thing against them until they hatch. No grenades for them!
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Postby TheRileyDuo » Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:08 pm

Major Cooke wrote:Use eggs! Futurewinians can't do a damn thing against them until they hatch. No grenades for them!


I'm not sure that is accurate. It just takes a lot of lasers to take down eggs in Multiwinia. However, I'm pretty sure that lasers won't destroy the darwinia eggs.
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Postby Kuth » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:46 am

I had an idea and I gave it a try just now.

When in the dreaded position 3 (AI one goes right, AI two goes left, both towards you), Hold position. Fortify both flanks, especially on the higher ground to the left (that way you'd be able to stop the enemy from rolling grenades into your spawn.

After weathering assaults from both players, the weighted crates should start to favor you. After all, if you have two spawn points and the enemy has more than you do, technically you're loosing. Use the powerups accordingly.

Failing this, keep an eye out for where the tide of battle is coming, and see if you can sneak some of your forces behind some of the spawn points. Won't always work, but at least you'll be able to contest them and keep the enemy from using that point to push reinforcements to your capital spawns.
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Postby TheRileyDuo » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:58 am

That's a great point: a successful defense is rewarded more than a sucessful offense, because of crates. The only problem with this is that crates can be bad... So I guess it's a risk as always.
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Postby Pinky » Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:13 am

I just witnessed this first hand.
Deceitful Vale, I was attacked with all the forces of one team on one flank, and half the forces of the other team on the other flank. Smooshing was inevitable, which is unfortunate becuase it was a ranked match.

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