Formations

General discussion about Game Play

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xander
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Postby xander » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:30 pm

Cyan. wrote:...but some obedience would be nice, as you, I pressume, wanted to say...

Boy, you are an arrogant twat. Get a dictionary, and learn to use it. I used exactly the word I wanted to use. Also, please learn to spell my name correctly.

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Postby KingAl » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:54 pm

Cyan. wrote:but some obedience would be nice, as you, I pressume, wanted to say.


Don't do that, it makes a press out of u and me.
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Postby MaximusBrood » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:39 pm

I pay 'agreedience' to Jelco's post.
Cyan, you are an arrogant twat.
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Postby Cyan. » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:56 pm

jelco wrote:
Cyan. wrote:Lowell, I am glad you like the game so much, but with all respect, I am guessing you are new and that what you have seen wasa nothing more then a nice finishing move. Wich is fine and nice to see, but not of real importance, tho correct me if I am wrong.

I'll correct you. How much longer are you going to pretend not understanding the countless messages directed to you which are all summarised as "stop acting like an arrogant twat"? Just because you think you don't need a certain feature doesn't mean people who do need it are playing it wrong.

No, don't hit the reply button right now, read on before returning another obnoxious comment.

Formations are used by many people. Shitloads. Fucktons. I have yet to witness a game that doesn't have formations. And you want to say that they are useless? What kind of logic did they teach you at school? Let's be clear about these 'faults' you're talking about: they are intentional. They are weaknesses to stop formations from becoming overpowered. Yes, they are easily surrounded/flanked, and don't have much firepower in the flanks. Imagine what would happen if this was not the case. Formations become some sort of free 'Rage' powerup because they have extra firepower to all sides and don't have any additional weaknesses. Grenades are not thrown by formations for exactly the same reason, and their weakness to grenades is only more than that of regular DGs because of their strong will and lack of evasive cowardly behaviour - but uh, when you start suggesting to remove that you have seriously missed the entire point of formations.

It's been discussed time and time again, in discussions about wildly varying feature suggestions which all boil down to the same thing: if you can't seem to use a game's feature in a useful way, start by changing your gameplay style before saying it's a fault of the game itself. And if you do give suggestions, make them sensible, taking into account the oh-so-important concept of 'balancing' or 'pro/con compensation'.

Finally, it would help if you take the time to not only read posts written up by others, but also those you've written yourself before hitting Submit. For example, the following sentence doesn't make any sense: "Formations are now almost never usefull and in the few cases they would be effective, they are of no use, becuase you could do easily without them."

Jelco


On request of MaximusBrood, first of all jelco you make a mistake here by making this a personal attack instead of material for a good discussion. The you'll see you correct me, but you really don't, making this an empty promise.

I never said players who do use formations play it wrong, but I said they are of little use.
Also you say formations are you used by many people, but exactly how many games did you played? 1, 2? Good thing you aren't addcted tho, but don't talk nonsense.
And these intentional flaws just may be unbalanced in the light of the new tactics and strategies developed as suggested, why not change this? Ants are nerved as well, is this such a bad thing? Your comparison to a rage power-up is quite hilarious.

But wat I liked most about you post was this:

"It's been discussed time and time again, in discussions about wildly varying feature suggestions which all boil down to the same thing: if you can't seem to use a game's feature in a useful way, start by changing your gameplay style before saying it's a fault of the game itself."

As it seems to be a direct copy of xander's post somehwere in the "Multiwnia's turn around when shot at" topic, :) good t see you're a quick learner, tho I wouldn't mind some originality.
And about that last sentence, it was ment to be funny, but you seem so frustrated that I guess you can't see the fun in anythng anymore.


Then for all you who finds me an arrogant twat, why not make a special topic about it? Instead of ruiining a serious topic, only because you don't agree with what it plea's for.

And you're right I don't know the word obeisance, that's why I said I pressumed you wanted to say that, about your name, no sorry bud I don't really care.
Now go ahead all flame, I don't mind so much :).
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Postby NeoThermic » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:58 pm

Cyan. wrote:about your name, no sorry bud I don't really care.


This is why we think you're an ass. You have no care for the community and thus we have no care for you. If you put in an ounce of care, you'd get a pound of care back. Oh well, your choice.

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Postby Cyan. » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:06 pm

I care for the game very much, I care for some people who play the game, but who exactly is the community? And how does the community care? Also why should I react seriously to a comment from someone, saying I didn't spell his name right, when as far as I can see, I only spelled his name with an Capital letter in the beginning? If you really wanna be so serious then I did spell your name right if xander is your name, I only did not spell your, don't know how to say exactly, "brand" right.
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Postby MrBunsy » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:30 pm

I'd love to see you try and join a club of some sort. I don't know many people here, but I try not to actively piss people off.
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Postby jelco » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:35 pm

Cyan. wrote:Also you say formations are you used by many people, but exactly how many games did you played? 1, 2? Good thing you aren't addcted tho, but don't talk nonsense.

First and foremost, I indeed don't play Multiwinia a lot, but then again that was never what I said. There is an agonizing amount of matches I have to watch replays of when things go wrong with the Ladder parsing their files, and on top of the rougly 20-odd matches that fall into this category per week I tend to watch some of the longer or bigger matches played on the Ladder. I also spectate matches in the Ladder servers regularly because I need to keep track of people who misbehave. The total easily gets to 35-40 matches a week, none of them played by myself which means I regard myself as a fairly objective observer when it comes to this.

Also, don't take the Ladder as an omnipotent source of playing stats: people can still play an awful lot on non-Ladder servers without the Ladder ever proving this.

Cyan. wrote:On request of MaximusBrood, first of all jelco you make a mistake here by making this a personal attack instead of material for a good discussion. The you'll see you correct me, but you really don't, making this an empty promise.

Read properly. I was attacking you for neglecting several things mentioned before, and the arguments I provided later on were there to support this. This is a normal structure to use when bringing across a point, and you might want to try using it yourself if you want to be taken serious.

Cyan. wrote:I never said players who do use formations play it wrong, but I said they are of little use.

The difference is negligible.

Cyan. wrote:And these intentional flaws just may be unbalanced in the light of the new tactics and strategies developed as suggested, why not change this? Ants are nerved as well, is this such a bad thing? Your comparison to a rage power-up is quite hilarious.

But wat I liked most about you post was this:

"It's been discussed time and time again, in discussions about wildly varying feature suggestions which all boil down to the same thing: if you can't seem to use a game's feature in a useful way, start by changing your gameplay style before saying it's a fault of the game itself."

...no wait, you've missed the point, go read it again until you understand it properly and don't expect a reply from me until then.

Cyan. wrote:As it seems to be a direct copy of xander's post somehwere in the "Multiwnia's turn around when shot at" topic, good t see you're a quick learner, tho I wouldn't mind some originality.

People saying the same thing aren't necessarily ripping each other off, they just agree with each other and/or came to the same conclusions based on their own respective experiences. This is the case here, and you'll find we're not the only two people saying it.

Cyan. wrote:And about that last sentence, it was ment to be funny, but you seem so frustrated that I guess you can't see the fun in anythng anymore.

Quite clearly you have no idea what glaring flaw I was pointing out, so I'll just ignore this.

Cyan. wrote:I care for the game very much, I care for some people who play the game, but who exactly is the community? And how does the community care? Also why should I react seriously to a comment from someone, saying I didn't spell his name right, when as far as I can see, I only spelled his name with an Capital letter in the beginning? If you really wanna be so serious then I did spell your name right if xander is your name, I only did not spell your, don't know how to say exactly, "brand" right.

You don't need to like the game to be part of the community or the other way around, but using the forums (and the Ladder) is taking part in the community and means that you should abide the (unwritten) rules we go by. If you don't agree to them, that's your choice, but understand that a direct result of that choice is having to leave said community.

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Postby Cyan. » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:01 pm

MrBunsy wrote:I'd love to see you try and join a club of some sort. I don't know many people here, but I try not to actively piss people off.


:) I did/ do join several sport clubs and I am/was well liked, this again probably sounds arrogant, but as far as you guys don't see me as a lier believe it. And I have my moments of joy on this forum, pissing people off, I hipe you can enjoy it with me :) seeing me burn!
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Postby Unit13 » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:04 am

Formations help alot, with defs. I once played a game of KOTH Coop. I held a very important "Hill" with 3 formations with upgrades like shileds/rage and a turret. The enemy kept rushing my with no formations as they were ripped apart. This Was an import hill beacuse it had the least defs and most points that it gave out and tactical advantage. My ally finially knocked the enemy's spawn points out and gave us the advantage of a tied game. FORMATIONS RULE!
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Postby Mas Tnega » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:20 pm

I find their greatest strength is punishing the inattentive, which isn't so great when real time strategy is all about wisely dividing one's attention. That example shines as evidence of this.

When the formation is attacking, you should be able to see it coming a mile off and just flank it. There is no situation where this is impossible without you being a seriously weak position, in which case the formation is just making for a sadistic endgame.

When it is defending, just attack from more angles than it can cover. If there's 3 formations and a turret, cut your losses and go for something else. Get a powerup or something. Even without them forming up that's going to be a bitch to break.
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Postby Cooper42 » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:02 pm

People also seem to assume they are for defence, and defensive positions only. Thing is, if you are in a position to have a formation and a cluster of loose MWs to hold a position, as I suggested, those MWs are more likely better put to use attacking, as MW tends to reward ballsy forward pushes. If you can't see a useful way to attack with those MWs, you're probably already screwed into a corner.

I'm sure there's more potential for them to be used as an offensive. Apart from my lazy use of them to avoid spending too much time on an easy attack, I've had some luck in the past using them to attack over steep ground. I've not been playing much recently as I'm away from my own computer, but I remember using them fairly effectively when attacking over the Mountain of Lost Souls. They migh move a bit more slowly, but you end up being able to send a mass of MWs at the same time down a hill, whereas a loose group tend to split up as some of them take faster routes than others. Sending formations attacking down the side of a hill neatly sidesteps their vulnerability to grenades, too.
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Postby Unit13 » Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:37 pm

Cooper42 wrote:People also seem to assume they are for defence, and defensive positions only. Thing is, if you are in a position to have a formation and a cluster of loose MWs to hold a position, as I suggested, those MWs are more likely better put to use attacking, as MW tends to reward ballsy forward pushes. If you can't see a useful way to attack with those MWs, you're probably already screwed into a corner.


I've attacked with formations. However it was a very slow but effective push.
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Postby Lithilk » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:22 pm

I don't use formations much, but I can see their uses. My strategies involve speed, so formations don't come into it much. Also, in every match I've had against xander or neo1000, I've noticed they haven't used formations.

In my eyes, Cyan hasn't done much wrong apart from be a tad eager to join the community, but at least he enjoys the game and offers his opinion. There is a slight elitism here though, but not on Cyan's part. Maybe his spelling and lack of correct grammar comes from not having English as his native language? Try to be tolerant, please.
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Postby neo1000 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:16 pm

Oh guys, what a discussion! I don't give a f**k if Cyan is arrogant. But he knows the game, he is a good allround player and he tried to start a useful discussion, which could be useful especially for newbies.

The thing is: there is a huge gap between experienced players like Cyan, Xander, Mas, JacXu etc. (sorry if I forgot s.o.). They all know how to use their MWs and they know for sure: MW is about speed and attack, especially in DOM, KOTH and CTS. Building up a powerful formation will take time, they are slow, they are vulnerable from the side and the back and they don't have grenades. Who will deny that? Honestly - a formation in "Guardians" or "Barriers"? I will doom you before you can say "Cyan is Ghandi" ;)

Formations can be easily surrounded. You only need 5 MWs to cause significant damage.

Formations are useful if they are constantly supplied from a spawn for example and if you move them one straight line ahead. I call that the "lawnmower-strategy". They are great against ants, evils, FWs or even eggs if some opponent used them for attacking and not for defending a spawn point and of course they can be used to defend certain areas later in a game.

To sum it up: Be careful if you are using formations for attacking, especially in the beginning of a game.

I disagree with Cyan to change that. They can be very useful but a new player should learn to move his "normal" MWs with speed and accuracy.

Please apologize my english. I am not a native speaker.

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