Subversion Development - Any Suggestions Etc...

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Postby DTNC Vicious » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:59 pm

:shock: :?
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Postby GreenRock » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:10 pm

Situations.
How confusing is that?
maybe one situation can consist of time, place and and event. Another one can consist of money and transportation.
So really, it's the generated city functioning, versus the player, the mastermind.
When I put my ideas down into words, the notions attempting to be expressed are blurred.
So none of this sounds exactly what I have in my mind, but it's the only way I can word it.

Buildings can be assigned classes, with:
buisness buildings = money
domestic housing = people
(maybe a train station, subway, bus) = transportation

This is not so much as creating a clan, or a gang, but using everything at your disposal to fill your desires.
So really its a chain of desires, and using the enviroment around you to fill them.
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Postby Jordy... » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:59 pm

I agree with you again Greenie :). Very exciting intro, and I am thinking too this should be gold. It'll be hard to implent right I guess, but then again I think IV can do this! I hope Chris sees something of his liking in your posts.
To the teddybear, kind of APB style missions?
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Postby Teddy Coalition » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:27 am

Jordy... wrote:To the teddybear, kind of APB style missions?


Exactly!


But I had some thought, and another version I was thinking.

And Jordy was right. It would be better if players created their own worlds.

A player can Host a Game, (creating the city.) 3 - to 12 Players can join, and take up control of diffrent districts of the city.
And manage resource, ally with each other, hire npc gangsters, or whatever, research technology, and Fight for total control. However this has been done before, and it's not very original, and can get stale after a while. That's why I proposed the 1 game world that changes ever so often when a clan wins the "Crown"
ould be a combination of both, but I like the Idea of having lots of freedom, and being able to do what you want, with lots of great opportunities.

a Fps/3ps/Black&White form of playing, that gives the player the option to play how they want to, is better, and funner.
I guess the Clan leader that wins, could get to use the generator co construct the next "playing Ground" i.e. Metropolis.
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Postby GreenRock » Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:49 am

I was questioning the clans/gangs/brotherhoods, what have you; but I described my idea with a mastermind. One person. What use will the clans be? If the dude needs an assasin, he calls one up and marks the target. If he needs a cab, bus, he waits there, speeds up time, and gets a ride to wherever he wants. Clans bring war to the city, and it would be another RTS?
no.
A new genre of video game should be created with this.
Go all out, Intro.
Maybe the players can mess with the variables with everything, and create situations that complete the game?
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Postby Teddy Coalition » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:59 am

GreenRock wrote:I was questioning the clans/gangs/brotherhoods, what have you; but I described my idea with a mastermind. One person. What use will the clans be? If the dude needs an assasin, he calls one up and marks the target. If he needs a cab, bus, he waits there, speeds up time, and gets a ride to wherever he wants. Clans bring war to the city, and it would be another RTS?
no.
A new genre of video game should be created with this.
Go all out, Intro.
Maybe the players can mess with the variables with everything, and create situations that complete the game?

But I see that as meerly an advanced Simulator. Giving the player the freedom to mess with the world however he chooseth is a great concept, but wheres the gameplay? The game has to involve players in a fun way that gives player sense of accomplishment and it can't be too difficult, or too complex. I love the idea of creating a new genre for a game, but that's a very difficult task. Besides, my idea isnt that rts. It would be a combination of several games, such as FPS/3PS, RTS, MMORPG, and a SIM.

I'm starting to think of it more of a Hacker game, where players hack into diffrent parts of the city, accesing things such as traffic lights, Elevators, Doors, Maybe the game world, could be in a sense like the matrix, and everyone is neo, so to speak that is. Just throwing stuff out there.
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Postby Jordy... » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:59 pm

I don't think it should be a "simple" hacker game, but in away I think hacking could be involved in my first thoughts were you're a mastermnid that manipulates the people for several purposes, bit like the republic idea.

I would love to see mmo gameplay. And msterminds yes sounds goods, resets, I can understand were the idea comes from, but I don't like it very much, I would much more prefer something like EVE online style. Afcourse there should always be the oppertunity for smart players to reach the top, but it will be so much more meaningfull if they do it because they're smart then if they accomplish it by grinding.
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Postby Teddy Coalition » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:38 pm

Jordy... wrote:I don't think it should be a "simple" hacker game, but in away I think hacking could be involved in my first thoughts were you're a mastermnid that manipulates the people for several purposes, bit like the republic idea.

I would love to see mmo gameplay. And msterminds yes sounds goods, resets, I can understand were the idea comes from, but I don't like it very much, I would much more prefer something like EVE online style. Afcourse there should always be the oppertunity for smart players to reach the top, but it will be so much more meaningfull if they do it because they're smart then if they accomplish it by grinding.


Are you trying to tell us, you're realy smark, and you require recognition for it? :lol: lmao, just kidding.
Anyways, I agree on almost everything you said, but gameplay like eve, I dont think thats the way to go.
This project needs something more original, something groundbraking and innovative, but still simple to use.
Complex gameplay can put off over 70% of the players.
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Postby Jordy... » Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:26 pm

True, EVE is to complex and long for me to get into as well. :) I knew it would come off like that a bit, but I am exactly quite dumb, only I hate grinding as well, so then I rather have a smart player decide what I should do then some frustrated kid like myself that plays a computer game for 18 hours a day just so he can fuck other people around. Anyways, there should definetely be something reall innovative in this game I agree, but what should/would it be?

My best guess is, that to make some innovating as a developer is very hard, rather you provide some basic tools and let the community be very creative with it and innovate gameplay, a bit like LBP, only that failed hard, in my opinion because the tools, all tho extensive where to limited in focus. We don't need all kind of colours or forms in SV I think, rather give the tools in hand for on the one side let players create there own tools etc to a certain extent, this would be done by real "modders?", and on the other hand more simple tools for the normal guy that takes use of the existent tools and put them into creative use. Then there would be a upper hierarchy with people that know how to program an built new tools and a lower class connected to these people that find all kind of crazy uses for them and maybe provide new ideas as well.

However, ofcourse there have be certain limits to what you can create, my suggestion was a kind of central comittee that decides what is allowed into the game, however this is very bureaucratic and time consuming I realized, so there should be thought of a smarter way to control thi new flow of user-created tools.
But provided that that is found this is what I imagine:

Players live in a massive computer generated world and from clans/political parties etc, whatever, to influence the world around them trought the use of there tools and actions. In this world there are also a lot of NPC that form the main subjects of the used tools and can be a source for money, power or whatever.
The, human, clans are made up like organisations, and the goal of the clan is to gain power in whatever way they choose, they can do this trough the use of technology on the npc's or even other players, like roadblocks for other non-clan players, or camera's or whatever. And through the actions they take, like killing other clan members or blowing up there buildings etc.
Then to top it all off, clans can think of new tools or programs to help them strive to there goal wich they then have to create and program thereself and wich then will be viewed for submission into the game by this "authority" and then if allowed put to use.

An example of this;

A camera face-recognizion program that sets an alarm in the police office when an pre-programed face, i.e. an enemy clan-member that is identified, is registered, and then the game will sent cops to this particular spot or whatever.
This would be very helpfull in a clan battle when you want to secure an area and make it harder for enemies to sneak in, afcourse then the gameplay is, camera's can be disable, faces can be masked etc.


About the authority, maybe this can be just a vote in the gameplay world, and you can promise early acces to your tools to some clans in order to get extra votes or exchnage votes or whatever to get your tool trough the proces. Afcourse after a certain amount of time any tool will become available to anyone.
If this voting is done in-game you can even create a virus-program in-game to rig the votes and when you get it trough you can sent man to all the vote-casts and infect them :D

Anyways, I think players should be able to create there own gameplay and ideas in the game in some kind of manner like this, but I realize what I suggest is far from perfect. but'll I keep thinking.
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Postby Jordy... » Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:28 pm

Ow yeah, besides all the jebrish I said, I totally agree and stress the importance of simplicity in the game and interface etc.
But I think the game can still be complex if one just can easily grab the whole idea behind the game and gameplay.
If you know how a building is built you don't have t know every detail for what a bulding is like, but you do have an easy navigation to go deeper into the stuff you like.
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Postby Teddy Coalition » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:45 am

I like the idea of players creating tools. and expanding the use of that tool to do something other than what it was designed for.

For example, if you remove a part of a mouse trap, it's no longer a mouse trap, how ever new use can be taken out of it.
dumb example, but the point is, I like the idea of open source tools, that dont require coding for the common player, but can be coded by the more advanced users.
umm.. i don't know if that makes any sense, but the idea of an entire community that alters the existence of the world around them in a very diverse way, all these diffrent, player created environments and tools. The hard part is determining the amout of power. It would be incredibly difficult to balance the world in that way.
All players should have some control, but limited so they don't infringe on other players space and right. If we have new players joining, only to be trampled by other players "hacks" and "overpowering" tools, and forces, then it will be too chaotic and too daunting for new players to join.

The idea of a "central comittee that decides what is allowed into the game, however this is very bureaucratic and time consuming I realized, so there should be thought of a smarter way to control thi new flow of user-created tools." (as quoted by Jordy...) is obviously not enough.
We can't have hundreds of IV staff members keeping tabs, and maintaining order. Too costly and inneficient.
Through history, Innovation is done, by taking something that HAS been done, and improving, and adding greater depth and use from it. (Sometimes adding a stroke of genious idea helps, heh.) (example: take something thats been done, consider what it lacks and what people wish it would do, and expand it's concept to include that and change the way it's accomplished. I hope that makes sense, x_x, heh.)
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Postby GreenRock » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:41 am

This isnt a comment to gameplay, or story, but I'm just wondering:
Can players fly around the island while the city is being generated?
That would be so cool :D

Well, for this game to be original and groundbreaking, something new needs to be introduced.

I'm thinking that this game does need multiplayer, but it DOESNT need lots of servers.
Instead, these cities can be shared.
Uploaded onto a subversion website/server, cities can be viewed by others, and whatever the gameplay turns out to be, your city can be used by other players.

Edit:
I think me, jordy, and teddy are way off. The ultimatley final gameplay version of subversion is floating above all our heads (Chris' the most), on the tip of our tounge, in other words.
It's there: the software, the physics, the generator, but the IDEA!!!!
AGAHGHG!
IT'S KILLING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit:
This just came to me, but I thought of this cool mechanic where you can click on a building, type in the floor number, navigate the floor, leave a marker in a desired location, and you can zoom back to that location you marked. A google earth kind of deal, where the camera sweeps to the location, capturing the glory of your city >:D

Edit:
A buildings anatomy
The syntax of its construction
(hopeful brain farts aiming to inspire other ideas)

Edit:
I just started to consider the graphics of the game. The picture at the beginning of this thread doesnt look as cool as the blue, white pictures of a city on chris' subversion blog.
When I considered the graphics, I started to get crazy again. Subversion is a computer-generated city, right? glitchy, hologram buildings :D
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Postby naufrago » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:07 pm

I registered for the forums specifically so I could post in this thread =)

So, this is what I imagine when I think about Subversion- I see it as a Grand Theft Darwinia meets Uplink 2. The wire and sensor systems being impemented made me add that last bit. I recall reading an easter egg where you shared some possible ideas for a sequel to Uplink, where the player may send in some guys to infiltrate a building while the player provides support in the form of hacking security defenses. A similar incarnation of that would seem to be very possible for Subversion. Anyway, onto the ideas proper...

Subversion could very well fit into the Darwinia universe. Small, possibly-graphically-updated Darwinians could populate the city; they could represent the next stage of evolution of their kind, building cities and creating urban environments. Their models could be somewhat updated, although nothing too drastic. Maybe use the 2d model, but with depth equal to or less than the width of the arms, and semi-translucent like the buildings. Just having swarms of mindless Darwinians wouldn't be enough, they should also have forms of transportation as well, like cars, buses, trains, and maybe a subway system. Using your population density figures that you use to determine how many and how big the buildings are, you could make appropriately dense crowds of Darwinians. Crowding could vary based on time of day, as well as location if so desired. Streets could be more jammed during commuting hours, areas in front of designated dining spots could be more crowded at lunch, and popular night hang-outs could have larger crowds at night. Each individual Darwinian doesn't need a deep background, but they should behave in reasonable manners- the way Grand Theft Auto handles npc's comes to mind. Now, I'm not trying to turn Subversion into GTA, per se, I just think that there are elements to their design that could potentially be applicable to Subversion, particularly in relation to randomly generated npcs on the street. I will add one more thing before moving on to the next idea- there shouldn't be an endless stream of Darwinians (or other npcs) randomly entering and exiting an office building. Some every now and then is fine, but too many and it risks looking really unnatural.

For over-arching gameplay elements, I can see it going one of a few different ways. My top pick would be that the player is an ambitious fellow looking to strike it big, by whatever means necessary. You control a budding organization, most likely criminal in nature, and your goal is to control the city. You can recruit members to perform heists, patrol your assets (buildings and the like), infiltrate opposing or neutral organizations, and cause general mayhem. Your choice of recruits can expand as you gain wealth and reputation, and the more you have, the better your options can become. Hiring could be a one-time fee for a one-time job, a per-unit-of-time basis with unlimited duration as long as you have the money, or a combination depending on what they're being hired for. In lieu of hiring for the mundane task of patrolling, you could have sentry bots like the Squad models you put in your demo videos, which could have a one-time purchase fee.

Short-term goals should be fun and contribute to your long-term goals in some way. They could include performing heists to get a quick boost to your income and obtaining more buildings through use one of several methods. You could steal and/or destroy the owner's assets, causing them to bankrupt, then you move in and take over their buildings. Or you could send in some of your members to infiltrate their organization, have them steal assets and information, and take them over from the inside-out (using subversion *winkwink*). I can also see the possibility of simply buying out opposing organizations, particularly if they're siginificantly smaller and weaker than yours. Meanwhile, other organizations should be doing the same, or at least there should always be an opponent with the ability to rival yours and be a challenge. New rival organizations could be unlocked as potential targets as you grow. Not every building has to belong to an enemy- there can and should be plenty of buildings unaffiliated with anyone. Whether or not they should be conquerable is up to you.

For specific gameplay, the player should be able to directly influence his organization members' actions, but not have direct access to everything in the game. For example, the player should not be able to click a wire to cut it, because that would be way too easy to circumvent most defenses. The player should be able to tell a member to cut a certain wire, however. It would just be weird for a disembodied pair of wire cutters to disable security systems with impunity. If you send some guys off to rob a bank or someone's vault, the player should be able to give specific movement orders to the gang, providing strategic and tactical support for the gang. Optionally, you could also have the player represented in-game as an 'elite' unit, with greater durability, chance of success, etc. than a normal recruit. The player's unit could also become more powerful as the organization grows. There should be a slight random element to certain things (I haven't decided on anything exact atm), with more skilled recruits having higher chances of success. Recruits could have areas of expertise, like safe-cracker, password breaker, security specialist, etc. Perhaps actions that you micromanage yourself have a 100% chance to succeed (insofar as the specific action goes), while if you send your guy on autopilot, he has a chance to fail based on his skill in that area and the complexity of the system he is trying to circumvent. If you have multiple operations ongoing simultaneously, you may not be there to micromanage every action.

Placement of security systems should fall to the player to install (or I suppose you could have an option for automatic defense generation). The UI for this should be fairly straightforward, or it could very easily become a slogfest. Defending your assets should be just as important as destroying your enemies'. You should be able to purchase keycard and passcode devices to limit access of certain areas to authorized personnel (your organization members), and perhaps even Digital DNA readers or somesuch for those willing to splurge to be more secure (i.e. more expensive options for greater security, for use in more sensitive areas or if the player is excessively wealthy). Money should be obtained through heists and through control of buildings, which should generate income over time. Your buildings should become populated with workers naturally with zero input, although if your opponents make things overly dangerous for them you may have to hire some temps to keep your business running. Perhaps if the number of workers at a building drops below a critical level, it reverts to neutral or abandoned status, thus hiring temps would make sense. Regular workers and temps should not be controllable, they're merely there as a measurement of how strong one's control is over a building.

I may expand on some of my ideas if I have time, and particularly if my ideas are well received =)


EDIT:
Expanding on the idea of number of workers as your metric for control over a building, using subversion tactics your agents could spread dissatisfaction among workers. It could cause them to go on strike or quit. I couldn't think of a mechanic for how subversion tactics would lead to the player gaining control of a building until just now. Additionally, your agents could act to compromise security systems during the day time while the workday is in progress, which would make raids at night easier for your more combat oriented agents, while all the workers are home and sleeping.

EDIT 2:
Information that you could obtain from other organizations could be improved equipment, more reliable or generally better security systems, schematics for devices, etc. This data could be obtained through your incognito agents gaining access to enemy research, your combat teams stealing them through night raids, or your own researchers developing new tools. Perhaps you could direct your researchers towards fields relevant to your interests to increase the likelihood of discovering something you want. Just brainstorming atm.
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Postby GreenRock » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:07 pm

Why is it that whenever we hear "city" we think of crime?
This has the poential to be a beautiful game.
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Postby naufrago » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:08 am

So I did some more thinking about buildings and came up with something I think would work within the framework I talked about in my last post, and can probably be loosely applied in some form outside of it. Buildings could have different designations based on location, population density, the types of buildings surrounding it, and a random factor. For example, many of the buildings could be office buildings, with a percentage being eating establishments, shopping areas, factories, etc. Each building type could have bonuses associated with them, such as bonus to income, research, influence, or whatever.

I don't want to be too specific with these suggestions because I don't know what would work within the systems you already have in place.

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