Subversion Development - Any Suggestions Etc...

It's all in your head

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Montyphy
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Postby Montyphy » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:07 pm

;)

[size=0]quote me[/size]
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Latest Uplink patch is v1.55.
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Suggestion

Postby BnBTKILLER » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:54 am

Hello, i just signed up. Been a fan of Introversion since Defcon ^^
anywho this is my 1st post so go easy on me lol and i hope im not to late for suggestions :P

When i was subversion a while back i was absolutely astonished that someone finally came up with the idea for core mechanics. instead of the basic create everything from scratch deal.
You guys mad an algorithm that generated a city without u having to touch the damn thing. it did it itself as a core mechanic. and i was like yes!!!! someone has brains! goodbye havok! lol
anyways after reading the post today i had an excellent suggestion cuz i loooveee uplink. me n my friends have always like the suspence ur games give us. slow. heart attack suspence. like defcon. all fun for the 1st 3 mins. than everyones dead quiet for the next 2 hours. reallllly fun.

So when i saw u were making like a stealth break into a bank or collapse a company thing i was overly excited... lmao ok enough rambling i suppose get to the point lol.

with ur new city generator and stealth idea. and i know u guys r no where near to being finished. but i was wondering.


Maybe you could give us a core mechanic game. you guys dont give us games. u give us experience. uplink isnt a game. its a .. virtual hacking simulation. an experience that ur in control and ur a part of this company.

So maybe with the same core mechanics that worked so well with the city generator. maybe u guys could make it a free roam stealth tactical multiplayer?
with the core mechanic. u give us the weapons. weapons dealers. money. buildings people and streets. and u let us do the rest. no story or anything.
that lets say theres 4 of us playing online? and we just walk or drive around and find a building. we simple just say ok lets do this one. kind of like real life.
no missions. no side missions. no do u accept this mission? or u failed the mission. like none of that. u just give us the city. and we do the rest.
core mechanics.

we just try to take things without input from u guys. like oh ur suppose to do this 3 missions 1st. than when u upgrade u can do these ones. none of that.
to much programming for u guys lol and to much of the same for us. instead of telling us what decisions we make.
u give us our own free choices? i guess is how u can say it?
pretty much. just let us be the player. while u just give us the city. and everything runs in real time. we can simply go into a building. and leave. if we want. who knows whats going to happen if we leave in the middle of it. ur not going to program
"If leave than 'suspect breakin'"
because u already have a core mechanic that does it already.
like a physics engine.
ur not gonna program if ball hit this angle and this degree with this velocity than do this.
because again. u have an algorithm that does that for u so u dont have to.

god this is a long post im REALLLYY SORRY. i just see sooooo much potential for this game.

BOTTOM LINE lmfao


If you just give us the core mechanics. and let us make the choices and not decisions. this would revolutionize the industry.
Me n my buddys can plan on the weekend where we wanna hit. we have been watchin this location for a while now. and we know the routines generally. we can find the exits and entrances. we can pretend to be someone and go in and examine than leave. we make the choices u know?

i hope i didnt go over board. i just really love u guys cuz u guys keep games original. and actually fun.

Hope i didnt ruin anything! lol

*nervous about posting*
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Postby naufrago » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:30 am

I disagree with your suggestion to not include a story or missions.

Missions and stories give a framework and justification for what the player does. They give a game depth, focus, and choice. The latter may seem counter-intuitive, but giving a person too many options leads to indecision. They're left thinking, "Ok, what am I supposed to be doing?" and that is usually interpreted as a failing on the developers' part. Presenting a player with missions and a storyline allows the player to say "This seems fun, I think I'll do that" or choose the alternative "Screw that, Ima do my own thing and wreak havoc." The choice to ignore the story and missions is a perfectly valid choice.

Also, it's much easier for the game to reward the player if there are well defined parameters for doing so, like completion of a mission. There are other ways for a reward system to work, but missions are among the easiest. I could see you getting rewarded by hacking a well-guarded server and escaping with plans for some new tool, but when there are so many random elements in the creation of a random building it's hard to say just how good the new tool (your reward) should be. They'll probably develop a metric for how secure a building or a piece of information is, and they may already have, so they can use it to determine rewards.


Also, don't feel nervous about posting. As long as you don't insult people or make incredibly godawful suggestions, it can spark some kind of discussion that Introversion might find useful. I hope.
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Postby BnBTKILLER » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:05 pm

I can agree with that.

Missions n what not.
Im just saying somewhat like uplink? u could go randomly to any server u wanted.
but if u wanted to get paid or have an objective. u could go to the jobs and get one from someone.
or u could hack into ur own bank account or do what ever u wanted to do on the side. :P

im just suggesting using core mechanics for broader than just using it to create city generator.

they could simply use the same thing .. for everything. like security systems. that too could just be a random generator.

i understand the feeling of accomplishment from gamers. by all means im not against that lol i think ur absolutely right tho.
story and objective is obviously needed. because why rob a bank if u dont need the money? lol need an objective.

so i think it would be awesome if it could be co-op. cuz i love that teamwork adrenaline feeling. plus i think too. it would be great.
if u get tired of a city. u could generate another one. and all the buildings r different with totally different security systems. kind of like leaving ur old city for another one.
and u could save ur old cities if u want to go back? lmao im just pulling things outta my ass now but i think it would be fantastic
to see a new type of missions. and what i liked about uplink as well. was the whole back story. with the free and random missions.
so there is a story. but u can semi-choose if u want to join in on it.
introversion does a damn well good job and giving the player choice.

so i do hope they use core mechanics for more things. thinking outside the box ^^

so in small words.

Yes. i do agree with missions and maybe some sort of behind the missions story like uplink. and a sense of accomplishment for surviving each mission.
that and kind of leave it up to us on how to do these missions. give us the missions. but nothing else.
so there will be like 50000000 ways to do the same obj. so everyone posting youtube vids do tutorials on how they did it ;P
okay again pulling things outta my ass. ill stop now lmao
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Postby Clive At Five » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:23 pm

Hmm... I don't necessarily agree with a missionless world, but I wouldn't be opposed to starting without any point-blank direction. Perhaps as you snoop about the world, you start to sniff out the meta story... XYZ Corp is becoming increasingly powerful, control over local politicians, industries - whatever - So as news of your simple heists spread, competing companies will seek you out and hire you... or perhaps you are contacted by XYZ Corp to destroy any companies that get in their way...

There should definitely be a meta-story, but perhaps making it less blatant would add to the "immersiveness" of the game.

-Clive
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Postby The GoldFish » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:20 pm

just so long as they don't give it (the meta story) a fixed timescale of entry...
-- The GoldFish - member of former GIT and commander in chief of GALLAHAD. You could have done something, but it's been fixed. The end. Also, play bestgameever!
Clive At Five
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Postby Clive At Five » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:40 pm

The GoldFish wrote:just so long as they don't give it (the meta story) a fixed timescale of entry...


Like Uplink's entry-point, you're saying?
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Postby Lukeyboy_101 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:13 pm

In my opinion; the best thing which could be included within Subversion is some sort of Online forum included within the game where fellow players could mention tips, tricks and strategies of what is to come next within the game. Not any spoilers of course; but some sort of system seen within Demon's Souls would be cool. Also some Easter Eggs included would be cool; maybe a Protologic 68000 placed cunningly in a corner of a room (just for us Fans to see)
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awesomenessness

Postby StoneCrow » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:31 pm

well my personal opinion is that subversion shouldnt be limited to one game
yeah sure make an AWESOME introversion style game with your epic singleplayer
and people will buy it
...but...
then start making dlc that challenges the player in new ways, or changes the game completely,
and open the game/engine to mods

with this games powerful city generator, and whatever building generator/creator that you have,
a dlc/mod or two, could turn everyones subversion gaming experience on its head doubling or tripling the purchase value of the game

for e.g i know im not the only one who bought a valve game just to get their sweaty hands on the sourceSDK and the mods that comewith.
~~~
also a coop is always cool
#
Stonecrow, good luck with it all anyway, except for datarealms this is my most frequented indie games forum
keep up the genius!
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Quick thought on the "pacmen people".

Postby acdimalev » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:59 am

I personally don't have a problem with the circle-and-arrow style for characters. The vehicle tracking segments of the Ghost in the Shell movie got me turned on to that representation and now they're just about standard in any GPS device. From the posted screenshots, I find myself mentally filling out what I assume every person is doing. Given the feedback so far, sounds like I'm not alone in doing so (nice photoshop Nutter).

http://images.google.com/images?q=gps+arrow

If having more detail is a must, first alternative that comes to mind for rendering characters is to have a bunch of generic, "expressive" character animations (think The Sims), use a low-resolution raster to avoid excessive detail (Darwinia Squad), and render the characters in "heat signature" colors. The low resolution raster and heat signature colors could give the characters an aesthetic, camera-style contrast to the blueprint world and hopefully reduce any amount of work in creating character models.

http://www.google.com/search?q=the+sims ... &tbs=vid:1
http://images.google.com/images?q=darwinia+squad
http://images.google.com/images?q=heat+signature
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Postby coldzer0 » Mon May 31, 2010 5:02 pm

The concept of Subversion has so much potential. I have two suggestions:

1. Either the group the player controls should be modern Robin Hoods (like in Leverage TV Show - if you didn't watch it, what are you waiting for - it's practically a live action Subversion :) ) or

2. this a long shot but here it goes: contact R. Talsorian Games and put the game in Cyberpunk world with all the big Corp players like Militech Armaments and Arasaka Security. It could be set during the 4th corporate war and players could work as a top mercenary team for one of the Corps or doing a freelance jobs for whoever pays bigger. I recommend reading the 2 campaign setting books about it. It a great source for plot hooks.

So I guess those are my suggestions for now. They are all about the setting. Gameplay wise I would need to see the list of available things that are planned and then comment further on it. Keep up the good work :)
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Postby Clive At Five » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:17 pm

coldzer0 wrote:1. Either the group the player controls should be modern Robin Hoods (like in Leverage TV Show - if you didn't watch it, what are you waiting for - it's practically a live action Subversion :) )


"Until men learn that of all human symbols, Robin Hood is the most immoral and the most contemptible, there will be no justice on earth and no way for mankind to survive."
- Ragnar Danneskjöld, Atlas Shrugged

So in other words, I respectfully disagree. :)
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Postby coldzer0 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:57 am

Clive At Five wrote:
coldzer0 wrote:1. Either the group the player controls should be modern Robin Hoods (like in Leverage TV Show - if you didn't watch it, what are you waiting for - it's practically a live action Subversion :) )


"Until men learn that of all human symbols, Robin Hood is the most immoral and the most contemptible, there will be no justice on earth and no way for mankind to survive."
- Ragnar Danneskjöld, Atlas Shrugged

So in other words, I respectfully disagree. :)


I respectfully disagree too. Simply because this is a game in which you're suppose to sabotage and steal other people's property :) And a little vigilante justice could do us a bit of good since nothing else seems to work right now, but I don't want to go into that philosophical discussion :)

Back on topic: Cyberpunk setting would be perfect for this game.
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Postby jelco » Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:05 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Leverage is a typically bad American ripoff of the British show Hustle, which makes Leverage bleaker than a full moon in comparison. With Hustle being more sophisticated, more intelligent, and British, I'd say it's obvious why you'd want IV to compare to that instead of Leverage. :P

Aside from that I agree with what has been said by the folks before me: there's nothing justified about a Robin Hood character if you look at it from a sensible point of view. Incidentally I've been having lots of discussions here recently about the Pirate Party, which is participating here in the Dutch elections taking place next Wednesday. Downloading software and music, in my opinion, is not morally justifiable if the releasing parties sell it to make a living off. Copyright is there for a reason and should absolutely exist. People who think all software and music should be freely accessible are wrong and have absolutely no right to claim they're fighting for fairer laws. The fact that it's nigh impossible to enforce all of that, and that the methods of enforcing that are used have very nasty side-effects on terrains where the legislation is in no way applicable, is an entirely different story and is something that I agree has to be fought. But you can't convince me that the guys from the Pirate Bay are not simply out to make stealing-by-download a legal thing. It sounds cliché and probably reminds everyone of the "you wouldn't steal a car" commercials, but the truth is that they're right (the message could be brought across in more sensible ways though). I admit that I'm guilty of this as much as anyone and I do it "because I can" but I will never say that it's my right to do that nor will I ever support anyone trying to change legislation that way.

Right, that's an off-but-also-slightly-on-topic rant out of the way. :)

Jelco
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Postby Clive At Five » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:11 pm

coldzer0 wrote:I respectfully disagree too. Simply because this is a game in which you're suppose to sabotage and steal other people's property :) And a little vigilante justice could do us a bit of good since nothing else seems to work right now, but I don't want to go into that philosophical discussion :)

Back on topic: Cyberpunk setting would be perfect for this game.


The fact that you used the term "vigilante justice" shows my point even more clearly. In Uplink, you hacked because you knew you were a twisted, terrible human being driven by money, not because you were the self-proclaimed champion of the victimized masses.

Jelco wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again: Leverage is a typically bad American ripoff of the British show Hustle, which makes Leverage bleaker than a full moon in comparison. With Hustle being more sophisticated, more intelligent, and British, I'd say it's obvious why you'd want IV to compare to that instead of Leverage. Razz

Aside from that I agree with what has been said by the folks before me: there's nothing justified about a Robin Hood character if you look at it from a sensible point of view. Incidentally I've been having lots of discussions here recently about the Pirate Party, which is participating here in the Dutch elections taking place next Wednesday. Downloading software and music, in my opinion, is not morally justifiable if the releasing parties sell it to make a living off. Copyright is there for a reason and should absolutely exist. People who think all software and music should be freely accessible are wrong and have absolutely no right to claim they're fighting for fairer laws. The fact that it's nigh impossible to enforce all of that, and that the methods of enforcing that are used have very nasty side-effects on terrains where the legislation is in no way applicable, is an entirely different story and is something that I agree has to be fought. But you can't convince me that the guys from the Pirate Bay are not simply out to make stealing-by-download a legal thing. It sounds cliché and probably reminds everyone of the "you wouldn't steal a car" commercials, but the truth is that they're right (the message could be brought across in more sensible ways though). I admit that I'm guilty of this as much as anyone and I do it "because I can" but I will never say that it's my right to do that nor will I ever support anyone trying to change legislation that way.

Right, that's an off-but-also-slightly-on-topic rant out of the way. :)

Jelco


I saw a preview for Leverage and nearly laughed myself off the couch. It just looked so terrible. "It's the worst show you aptly decided not to watch."

Agreed on the other points. I would never condone legislative measures to legalize piracy even though I've done it myself. Piracy is very tough to combat. On one hand, fighting it often induces it... but on the other hand, if one were to make everything "open source," content creation (music, software, art, whatever) would come to a screeching halt.

And it's interesting that you bring them up because we have a party like that in America, except instead of legislatively legalizing the theft of music, they advocate the plunder of actual money, which would bring OUR "content providers" to a screeching halt... They're called the "Democrats" ~ ay-o! ;)

Hey, I'm a Libertarian, I can (and do) bash both sides. :D

I should probably save this sort of talk for the "lounge" ...

-Clive

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