It's all in your head, Part 19

The only place you'll ever hear the truth
Taedal
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Postby Taedal » Sat May 08, 2010 10:53 pm

This is looking really great. So nice to see an update and to see how far it has come along. Having a procedural world simulated to this level makes for some really exciting possibilties. Can't wait! :p
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A potential tweak to the algorithm

Postby SparroHawc » Wed May 12, 2010 9:49 pm

There is one thing that occurs to me - people don't use A* algorithms to determine their path through buildings. Generally speaking, they take the path which is as short as possible while going through the fewest doors.

Just because there's a meeting room with a door on either side bridging a long loop of hallway doesn't mean everyone's going to go through the meeting room. Usually they'll go the long way, through the hall. This is especially true since rooms generally have a specific purpose, and that purpose isn't 'space to walk through'.

Now, Johnny Q. Hacker is probably going to take the shortest route he is aware of, as long as there aren't actual obstacles in the way. The NPCs, on the other hand, don't have the time constraints.
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Re: A potential tweak to the algorithm

Postby Montyphy » Wed May 12, 2010 10:54 pm

SparroHawc wrote:There is one thing that occurs to me - people don't use A* algorithms to determine their path through buildings. Generally speaking, they take the path which is as short as possible while going through the fewest doors.

Just because there's a meeting room with a door on either side bridging a long loop of hallway doesn't mean everyone's going to go through the meeting room. Usually they'll go the long way, through the hall. This is especially true since rooms generally have a specific purpose, and that purpose isn't 'space to walk through'.

Now, Johnny Q. Hacker is probably going to take the shortest route he is aware of, as long as there aren't actual obstacles in the way. The NPCs, on the other hand, don't have the time constraints.


Simple alterations to the heuristic weight will easily account for this.
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Speedup Techniques

Postby VeaaC » Wed May 12, 2010 11:24 pm

A* is not really the cutting edge any more for route planning. Especially for large sparse graphs very fast algorithms have been researched over the last years.
One simple example are Contraction Hierarchies. On the road network of Germany, e.g., a single query can be answered in less than a millisecond on average, more than 10000 times faster than a simple Dijkstra's search and at least 1000 times faster than A*, depending on the A* heuristic used. They also support dynamic updates, parallel precomputation, time-dependent edge weights etc. Furthermore the space overhead for static networks is essentially non-existing.

Information can be found at:

http://algo2.iti.kit.edu/1094.php The original CH paper
http://algo2.iti.kit.edu/1328.php An overview of state-of-the-art ingredients for route planning algorithms

Of course the algorithm has be refined and simplified since its invention. I would gladly give you some pointers if you are interested.

Thus, if you are interested in speeding up your shortest path's computation you should look into some of these algorithms, finding one suitable for your needs.

I also could present you some ideas on how to create a graph from your 2.5D environment for routing purposes. There are less memory consuming, and more exact ways to do so than rasterizing the geometry.
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Postby iestyn » Mon May 17, 2010 8:18 am

It strikes me that the levels of this game could end up playing like episodes of Mission Impossible. Which also strikes me as fantastic.

If there is any TV show worthy of reimagining as a videogame, Mission Impossible is surely it!

iestyn
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Postby ChemicalRascal » Thu May 20, 2010 1:47 am

The term "incredible" comes to mind.

When I think about this sort of thing, combined with the modularised nature of each building's components (such as the Shopping Doors being split into sensors, actu-whatevers, and so on) and the manipulation of these components... I'll say it now, this may well be one of the best game ideas/designs I've ever seen.

If this ends up with a multi-player aspect, it would be interesting to see how you guys handle that. Would the roles be broken down, so that one person is the guy sitting back in the van doing all the hackery work, while each other player would control a single agent? Such a level of role-splitting may cause each player to spend a lot of time inactive if this was employed on typical game levels, so no doubt more complicated, more (insanely) difficult missions would need to be generated/hand-created for multi-player games, ones that would be nigh-on impossible to complete as a single player due to the amount of things that may need to be done simultaneously/quickly.
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Postby SL33TBL1ND » Fri May 28, 2010 8:46 am

I love you, this will be the best game of all time. This or if someone can a good Burn Notice game, but they would probably be similar. Anyway, keep up with the good work!
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New Game - Old Idea (ment to be a long time ago)

Postby Lucky13 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:41 am

First of all let me say that Uplink was, is, and always will be one of my top 10 games of all time.

With that said, this game (Subversion) being the sequel to Uplink, i think i speak for everyone when i say that waiting until 2012 or so for this to come out is going to be torturous. Love what you have done so far. Really makes waiting for the for the game that much harder.

I personally like the playability of the pathing system. Seeing where they (npc's) are going (roughly) before they go there will be very useful.

For me the game Subversion takes Uplink and adds social engineering.
-posing as the maintenance man, a vender, or security
-phone taps (phreaking), password collecting
-infiltrating the security systems {cameras delete recording/play loop}
-gaining rfid cards/access cards or just cloning them
-defeating motion sensors {Sneekers :P but that doesn't really work just cheesy} turn them off or security system attached to them
-accessing safety deposit boxes
-bugs, microphones, general intelligence gathering
-tumbler locks (visual?) picks or a rake-gun
-exploded view of security system boxes/physical manipulation. from shorting out everything and running to disarming.
-tapping into camera system (at security room/desk)

Soo many movies and shows come to mind for inspiration. Leverage series comes to mind for some good thoughts. (social engineering)
Also will there be a base of operations? {not mom's house... maybe garage,, at first at least} A loft type place would be better i think. And what kind of security could you put in your own place.

Im not really sure how i feel about actual guns in this game. Too much toward gta or something. Tazers sure, smoke bombs, noise makers, diversionary stuff, you know.. Like the wall scanner though..

Replayability isn't even a concern if every building in the city will be accessible. And of course like Uplink there will most likely be an amazing story line mission to do as well (not that you have to, to have fun).
Owning the building should be consistent with buying the building. (BIG bucks barely feasible) Renting the loft, ok.. So and so inc. {like Sneekers}

A couple of last things. what about stairs or elevators? fire alarm systems to evac building. security after a while will report to the pulled pull station and reset it then turn back on system. (sprinklers dont go off all at once only the head that popped nor are they computer controlled like in Hackers) Toilets DO share a plumbing wall (in any building taller than 1 story) that is also usually thicker, like big enough for a person. access hatches usually in mop closet. And wet walls (for plumbing) are stacked in taller buildings. Will there be pedestrians walking around outside? Blue circles indicate PD. Phones/Power/Cable all have boxes outside that can usually be accessed unless cctv covered. Security is usually on the inside in the ceiling or a locked closet for low rent buildings. Or in a manned security room for better buildings. Your video is pretty standard of a banks S.O.P. Will there be different levels of police (In house security/PD/FBI). Will they have a field of vision? Just a few thoughts.. ;) I have MANY more.....

Ok so its alot to take in! But all in all im sure whatever the final game looks like when it comes out, it will be amazing.... video looks awesome..

edit: one last thing will there still be a hacking aspect?
Last edited by Lucky13 on Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Radiobuzz » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:12 pm

Hey hey, hold your horses! Subversion is not a sequel to Uplink. Perhaps a spiritual sequel but not a sequel per se.
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Lucky13
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the spirit lives on!!

Postby Lucky13 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:25 pm

Radiobuzz wrote:Hey hey, hold your horses! Subversion is not a sequel to Uplink. Perhaps a spiritual sequel but not a sequel per se.


Tamato / Tomoto... but yea your right...
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Lucky13
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The Whole Story??

Postby Lucky13 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:00 pm

ok so im posting a tad much. i just really cant wait.
So im trying to get a handle on the story line of the game. have you guys already planned out something?

Wikipedia describes Subversion as:

Subversion refers to an attempt to overthrow structures of authority, including the state. It is an overturning or uprooting. The word is present in all languages of Latin origin,[citation needed] originally applying to such events as the military defeat of a city.

As early as the 14th century, it was being used in the English language with reference to laws, and in the 15th century came to be used with respect to the realm. The term has taken over from ‘sedition’ as the name for illicit rebellion, though the connotations of the two words are rather different, sedition suggesting overt attacks on institutions, subversion something much more surreptitious, such as eroding the basis of belief in the status quo or setting people against each other.
:D :D :D

Superlative
most surreptitious

1. stealthy, furtive, well hidden, covert (especially movements)

also

Subvertising

At the turn of the millennium, anger at the monopolizing of public space by commercial advertisers and corporate interests prompted a social movement to subvert corporate advertising, especially the ubiquitous corporate logos that inundate public space. "Subvertising", a form of vandalism or graffiti, involves subtly changing posters and advertisements to alter the intended meaning of corporate slogans and logos, usually in an attempt to highlight the company's unethical practices.

Brings to point the use of guns in subversion.. not very superlative.. :wink:
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Lucky13
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Postby Lucky13 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:19 pm

Darn,, still no feed back?? :?
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Xocrates
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Postby Xocrates » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:49 pm

Lucky13 wrote:Darn,, still no feed back?? :?

You seriously want feedback for pretentious mad rambling, based on wishful thinking, inspired by a videogame we only have a sketchy idea of?

Really? :shock:
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Postby elexis » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:25 am

If you are wondering why there is no feedback then perhaps you should go to here.
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xander
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Postby xander » Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:13 am

Xocrates wrote:
Lucky13 wrote:Darn,, still no feed back?? :?

You seriously want feedback for pretentious mad rambling, based on wishful thinking, inspired by a videogame we only have a sketchy idea of?

Really? :shock:

You forgot the "and in less than four hours" portion of that response. ;)

xander

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