It's all in your head, Part 17

The only place you'll ever hear the truth
SmackleFunky
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Postby SmackleFunky » Wed May 27, 2009 2:30 am

So... A 3d immersive world with gravity, digital logic, motors, physics and Lua scripting.

In other words - Garry's Mod (with WireMod)...with retro graphics?
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Postby Wasgood » Wed May 27, 2009 2:31 am

Yay explosives.
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Postby shinygerbil » Wed May 27, 2009 3:07 am

SmackleFunky wrote:So... A 3d immersive world with gravity, digital logic, motors, physics and Lua scripting.

In other words - Garry's Mod (with WireMod)...with retro graphics?
Hopefully with fewer "humorous" homosexual poses involving the G-man.
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Postby trickser » Wed May 27, 2009 5:07 am

I will immediately start to sketch some insane 30+ stages chain reaction machines. :twisted:
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Postby Gorans » Wed May 27, 2009 7:11 am

I am reminded of CognyToy's Mindrover. Anyone here played that?
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Postby Serif » Wed May 27, 2009 9:13 am

Thanks for carrying on with Subversion, some of us were beginning to think that it was slowing down again.

This stuff looks REALLY awesome. I would love to come and work at introversion, except that I'm 15 so I have to do GCSEs
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Postby devnevyn » Wed May 27, 2009 2:03 pm

Visual programming is way too fun :) We built something similar here at work, with sensors, actuators and... then a whole lot of other components :P Everything distributed on an Erlang network.
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I'd give it all up for having it in 3D, though! :P

This fantastic article reminded me of an old game idea. Back in the days when me and my friend used to map in duke nukem 3d, we built a gigantic fortress, with weapon lockers, safety systems, control rooms, turrets, you name it. Then we tried to persuade some other friends to build a fort of their own, and then we'd battle and try to break into each other's forts and detonate a bomb in the basement. They were too lazy to build their own fort, but it was great fun to build anyway :)

Your engine would so perfect for this idea :) Build it or I'll have to copy all your work in my own game engine! :P And quit my day job, and possibly never leave my IDE… So it would be much more practical if you did it.
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Postby jelco » Wed May 27, 2009 3:11 pm

Visual programming is fun, but it is usually not very practical for bigger applications unless the goal is for the end result to be the visual representation you're working with. I've tried several applications for creating footage for my VJ shows, and have come across visual programming environments as well. The most commonly used one is Quartz Composer for the Mac, which devnevyn used for his screenshot (I think). I don't have everyday access to Quartz as much as I do to other apps because I don't own a Mac, but I've tried it several times and it's definitely easy to work with. The problem though is that everything easily becomes cluttered once you create, for example, complicated particle systems (which are lovely to create in visual environments otherwise). Another, more VJ-oriented visual modular environment which is mainly available on the PC is VSXu. Once again, it can do a hell of a lot, but the interface quickly becomes cluttered (a whole new level of cluttered in fact). VSXu also doesn't have its browser interface going for it (not visible in that screenshot), which while really fancy is not exactly user-friendly (yet).

This does not mean, by the way, that programming is not a feasible way to create visuals. You can do marvelous things in Max/MSP/Jitter (which I prefer to think of as pseudo-visual/modular), and fancy ActionScripts in Flash are also very easy to create, not to mention what Processing can do. It's just that a visual representation of modules is not always as easy to overlook and user-friendly as it seems - sometimes, just storing all those modules in separate script files and linking them together with a few lines of code is just easiest. (OOP to the rescue.)

In other words, it works well in Subversion in this context because the goal is for these modular systems to appear in the actual game world. But if you were to use a visual programming environment for creating, for example, the building geometry of the procedural generation patterns, it would probably be very impractical for too many reasons. Visual programming is definitely fun and can be very useful, but it shouldn't be heralded as the next step in accessible programming as which it is often portrayed.

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Postby devnevyn » Wed May 27, 2009 3:35 pm

jelco wrote:…Quartz Composer for the Mac, which devnevyn used for his screenshot (I think)…

Mwahaha! It's not! It just looks EXACTLY LIKE IT! I basically cloned the UI because I found it pretty.
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Marquise Fishy TGF McGraw
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Postby Marquise Fishy TGF McGraw » Wed May 27, 2009 3:50 pm

Yes, well, hopefully this won't just turn into another short haul confrontational multiplayer game.

Consider that your electronic systems need to be physical too, people love to solve problems in unconventional ways; as you say, your time bomb example doesn't have any problem with being picked up and thrown out of the window. It also probably doesn't have any problem if just the dynamite is picked up and thrown out of the window, but the rest of the system is left on the 25th floor - it sits there ticking down and the bomb still blows up, despite the fact someone picked it up and threw it out of the window, stretching the connections over 25 floors.

Also consider that complicated devices are needed to solve complicated problems. Imagine a bomb which uses a magnetic system which requires an oscillator to move a detonating pin back and forth - if it remains either 1 or 0 for too long, it detonates. It also has an internal battery, so you can't just cut the supply off (something that again, your system doesn't yet model). Once activated, the oscillator circuit starts to decay, resulting in the eventual detonation of the device. If you just have a pair of wire cutters, you probably can't solve this problem at all - it might as well just be a magic code box that can't be penetrated at all. To be fair, this is a deliberately convoluted problem, but that's the point - it's a perfectly conceivable system, but it's easy to make it nigh impenetrable. With limited access to information/functionality/accessability, user created content can very quickly become nigh impenetrable. At the same time, with too much information/functionality/accessability, nearly all problems become trivial. Neither nigh impenetrable or trivial are fun; I would say that it's a difficult game mechanic to impliment because of the precise balence that it needs, but, it is a great design mechanic because you can build and modify a system almost on the fly. Remember that battles in gmod are between giant walker beasts with auto range finding artillery cannons attached to their backs, not skulking around cutting the wires which are making it all work.
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Postby Xeon06 » Wed May 27, 2009 4:25 pm

This game is now at the top of my wish-list. This is becoming so awesome, like someone said: first you got the procedural city generation, then this system? This is also starting to resemble my dream game... we'll see how it progresses.
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Postby Weatherproof » Wed May 27, 2009 6:37 pm

Holy Crap Subversion! I love you!!!
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Re: It's all in your head, Part 17

Postby NeatNit » Wed May 27, 2009 9:13 pm

Chris wrote:When your guys open the safe on the 25th floor ...
Meaning that you will not take the role of any specific person, or the person you'll take the role of will never do anything by himself..?

I'm pretty sure this rules out FPS
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Re: It's all in your head, Part 17

Postby shinygerbil » Wed May 27, 2009 9:33 pm

NeatNit wrote:
Chris wrote:When your guys open the safe on the 25th floor ...
Meaning that you will not take the role of any specific person, or the person you'll take the role of will never do anything by himself..?

I'm pretty sure this rules out FPS
or it might just have the option to work in a team, sometimes. or it might mean that sometimes, you will not do some things and get other people to do them. sometimes. a bit like, for example, any FPS with team-based play. which is most of them.

shock horror

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Postby Puzzlemaker » Wed May 27, 2009 10:40 pm

I WANT!

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