It's all in your head, Part 13

The only place you'll ever hear the truth
YagerX
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Postby YagerX » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:13 am

H-h-heat sensors? Light sensors? This is starting to sound like Gmod...
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Postby shinygerbil » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:24 am

Except that G-mod is about stupidly long loading screens and putting Half-life characters into homosexual positions with each other and not much else.
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Who'll live in the city?

Postby ManE » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:30 pm

I would love to see hoards of Darwinians (and they know how to shoot already) storming the buildings!

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Postby YagerX » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:46 am

shinygerbil wrote:Except that G-mod is about stupidly long loading screens and putting Half-life characters into homosexual positions with each other and not much else.


But things like the automatic doors and elevators sound right at home in GMod...
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Postby KingAl » Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:02 am

Oh man, you've caught them -- Subversion is actually just the G-mod.
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Postby louman » Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:55 am

I'm really glad to see more progress on Subversion!

Chris must be intrigued by some of the ideas you guys are coming up with, I wouldn't be surprised if his plan is still vague enough that a few insightful posts could play a big role in Subversion's development.

That being said, I'm just dumbfounded at the potential this engine seems to have; keep it up!

I'd be interested in the technical limitations of simulating so many different systems... certainly the entire city couldn't be %100 simulated on any normal machine. Could there potentially be some sort of distributed simulation of the entire city, somehow? I've always liked the idea of a decentralized persistent-universe...
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w

Postby maninalift » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:04 pm

Like I think a lot of people I was thinking this game was going to be a God/strategy type game but it looks like being a really rich first person thing. I hope not an MMO because that doesn't interest me so much and it would seem like a waste of all that procedural generation powers for everyone to live in the same world.

I was really hoping that there would be some convincing societal modelling, which is something I've been thinking about how to do for a long time. The dumb "people in city X are unhappy: reduce the taxes or bring the troops in" of games like Total War is very disappointing.

Societies are constantly changing yet staying the same, delicate and robust. In a word chaotic. I want my cities to be Lorentz attractors not simple harmonic oscillators.

How you are going to deal with modelling such large and detailed cities is what really intrigues me: culling physics isn't like culling graphics :)

hmm.... so interesting.

One thing is clear: there are lots of games that could be built on the foundations you have shown in this blog, perhaps you will licence the game engine????

And this like your other game will be available on Linux????

There really should be more publicity for Introversion games on Linux. People are always saying that no commercial games are published for Linux, yet few people seem to know about you, every nixer should come here to worship.
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Postby martin » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:11 pm

louman wrote:I'd be interested in the technical limitations of simulating so many different systems... certainly the entire city couldn't be %100 simulated on any normal machine. Could there potentially be some sort of distributed simulation of the entire city, somehow? I've always liked the idea of a decentralized persistent-universe...


I would imagine that it only simulates the level of detail that you can see, so either an entire city but not very many systems (I don't suppose many systems are big enough to need to be simulated in such a huge scale) or a single building and every system simulated but Just in that building.
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Re: w

Postby Xocrates » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:21 pm

maninalift wrote:I was really hoping that there would be some convincing societal modelling, which is something I've been thinking about how to do for a long time. The dumb "people in city X are unhappy: reduce the taxes or bring the troops in" of games like Total War is very disappointing.

The question here is, why are you expecting deep sociological simulation from what is essentially a war game? Try simcity, now those are some bastards that like to complain. And not just as a whole, in simcity 4 I constantly had individual health clinics on strike because they were overworked :P

What was this about again? Oh, right subversion.

I doubt this will be a MMO, even more so because I recall reading that both subversion and chronometer would be more single player based, although it was possible for them to have multiplayer modes.

I do wish that Chris would throw us a bone here on what the game will be about, after all this time seeing blue buildings I'm starting to actually lose interest in the game, no matter how fascinating the technology might be.
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strategy and society

Postby maninalift » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:09 pm

@Xocrates


The point is that military strategy is about societies. The second Roman invasion of Britain succeeded because they had been trading with Britain and had developed alliances and already started a cultural colonization of the south-east..

I'm not talking about detailed simulation but simulation that captures the essential characteristics, hence picking the analogy of the Lorentz equations.

Clearly I am not talking about this game anymore but something like total war. But in one of those games, when I am trying to form alliances, trading etc I want to be faced with questins about how much a given populace trusts me whether they hate they hate their enemy and are motivated to war whether they respect their local rulers, whether the local rulers respect me... and I don;t want this to appear as a bunch of statistics but instead in the form of rumours etc, perhaps I can choose to have a look at local papers. Citizenship... law... artistic freedom all matter to EMPIRE.

OK I've gone into my own fantastical imaginations of a society game engine, but the point is I was genuinely disappointed by the sort of linear behaviour of cities in total war, they only need be a little more interesting and unpredictable.
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Re: strategy and society

Postby Xocrates » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:21 pm

maninalift wrote:The point is that military strategy is about societies.


No... Military strategy is about, well, war. What you're talking about is something a lot along the lines of Civilization where war isn't even strictly necessary.

EDIT: And as a side note, although a game the likes you describe is possible, the amount of work to decently flesh out both the military and social side to the level you intend, not to mention making them engaging, means it is not at all likely that such game will emerge in the nearest times. There is a reason most multi-genre games are considered lackluster you know.
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Postby Weatherproof » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:34 pm

With the scripting and everything, this game is extremely modular and could be either a strategy, fps, racer, or....life simulator. You could even license this technology to game companies that are making games with huge cities or something.
But just running around in a city messing with stuff at that level is definitely the next level of interactivity.
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Postby Romanu » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:38 pm

I think that it's a remake of the old Syndicate games :P
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Postby louman » Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:25 am

martin wrote:I would imagine that it only simulates the level of detail that you can see, so either an entire city but not very many systems (I don't suppose many systems are big enough to need to be simulated in such a huge scale) or a single building and every system simulated but Just in that building.


That could work in a single-player, first-person type of game, but not so well under multiplayer or high-level strategy. Perhaps this limitation is a clue as to what sort of game we can expect?
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Postby MadTinkerer » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:13 pm

Regarding the sort of game it is, we've had two huge clues from the beginning:

"Subversion" and "It's all in your head".

So isn't it obvious? You're a computer virus (or hacker) in the near-future who can Subvert peoples' minds via their internet data ports. Perhaps Mr. Bibblesby is a 46 year old accountant who has never been late a day in his life and has a spotless record. The worst thing he's ever done is miss the wastebin when chucking a candy wrapper across the room. Well we'll fix that, won't we!?! MUAHAHAHA!!!!

A quick Subversion and we have Mr. Bibblesby crawling through air vents, stealing documents, poking holes in toner cartridges, arranging buckets of water to fall on Executives as they leave their offices, and sabotaging automatic doors! Yes, Bibblesby, go, go, go! Cause as much mayhem as you can before the police show up! Muahahahaha!!!

Then, when they drag poor Bibblesby away, we've already moved onto the offices next door. Who's this? Liza Penbury, a 37 year old secretary for some middle manager in an insurance company? Worst thing she's ever done is put artificial sweetener in her boss's tea when he asked for real sugar? Well we'll fix that, won't we!?!

That's what I'd love to play, anyway.

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