Notes from the Slippery Slope, Part 4

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zach
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Postby zach » Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:46 pm

Quote included due to this being first post on a new page
skull13 wrote:So, Chris. Does this mean that when Multiwinia comes out, us Mac and Linux and Windows users can play against those 360 users?

That would kick ass...

Excuse my opinionated tone here, but - no, it wouldn't.
At least not unless you give 360-users a mouse and/or a keyboard.

"Oh hello there - I can select units five times as fast and accurate as you can, just look and these perfectly aligned airstrikes!"

Too imbalanced, I would say.
It might work for other sorts of games - it is an interesting opportunity - and of course there's the odd chance that some massive amounts of mumbo jumbo from Introversion would make it work well cross-console - but I really wouldn't bet my money on it.
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Postby Xocrates » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:01 pm

I'm pretty sure there are games that are playable between xbox and pc, including RTSs (at least Universe at war was announced as doing just that).

So, despite the fact xbox owners would probably get their asses kicked, the possibility is quite real. And considering that Darwinia is quite playable with a controller, I wouldn't be surprised.
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Postby martin » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:32 pm

I'm sure there is an FPS that is playable as xbox Vs PC, which is even more unbalanced than an RTS!
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Postby RabidZombie » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:49 pm

Microsoft's policy on cross platform play is: "No, unless you have a 'Games for Windows - Live' Gold account."

That's an extra £39.99 per year. I don't think it's worth it. :P
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Postby NeoThermic » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:09 pm

RabidZombie wrote:Microsoft's policy on cross platform play is: "No, unless you have a 'Games for Windows - Live' Gold account."

That's an extra £39.99 per year. I don't think it's worth it. :P


That's not quite correct. If the game wishes to use Live, then yes, you're correct. However, games are more than welcome to implement their own online game handling code and serve play to everyone. As far as I'm aware, IV are in the latter as, based on Defcon, the metaserver provides us the online game listing.

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Postby RabidZombie » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:15 pm

NeoThermic wrote:
RabidZombie wrote:Microsoft's policy on cross platform play is: "No, unless you have a 'Games for Windows - Live' Gold account."

That's an extra £39.99 per year. I don't think it's worth it. :P


That's not quite correct. If the game wishes to use Live, then yes, you're correct. However, games are more than welcome to implement their own online game handling code and serve play to everyone. As far as I'm aware, IV are in the latter as, based on Defcon, the metaserver provides us the online game listing.

NeoThermic


As far as I'm aware, yes, the games can use their own servers to provide clients with a list of games (etc), but I've always thought that having a Live Gold account was mandatory to allow online play for the 360, and for cross platform play between Xbox and PC.

I still can't find any examples of cross platform play being free or any Xbox games not requiring Xbox Live Gold for online play. I can only quote every XBox game I've played and Shadowrun to imply the opposite.
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Postby NeoThermic » Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:20 pm

RabidZombie wrote:As far as I'm aware, yes, the games can use their own servers to provide clients with a list of games (etc), but I've always thought that having a Live Gold account was mandatory to allow online play for the 360, and for cross platform play between Xbox and PC.


Again, MS only charge if you make use of Live and it's features. If you don't need any of them, you're more than able to code your own systems.

RabidZombie wrote:I still can't find any examples of cross platform play being free or any Xbox games not requiring Xbox Live Gold for online play. I can only quote every XBox game I've played and Shadowrun to imply the opposite.


Just because you can't find any examples of games that don't use Live for online play on the consoles doesn't mean that it's not possible. It can just simply mean that it's easier to use Live than roll your own.

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Postby RabidZombie » Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:49 pm

NeoThermic wrote:
RabidZombie wrote:As far as I'm aware, yes, the games can use their own servers to provide clients with a list of games (etc), but I've always thought that having a Live Gold account was mandatory to allow online play for the 360, and for cross platform play between Xbox and PC.


Again, MS only charge if you make use of Live and it's features. If you don't need any of them, you're more than able to code your own systems.


I know. That's what I said in the post. If you're trying to say that devlopers can implent anything they want, network wise, however. That is incorrect. Microsoft have strict controls on what can or can't be published. Content sharing, for instance, is one major aspect that Microsoft have clamped down on considerably. N+ and UT3 are both large suffers from this, as custom content are two things that help drive those games above the rest. Microsoft likely take similar controls on how networking works, probably putting restrictions on features that bypass them making more money.

NeoThermic wrote:
RabidZombie wrote:I still can't find any examples of cross platform play being free or any Xbox games not requiring Xbox Live Gold for online play. I can only quote every XBox game I've played and Shadowrun to imply the opposite.


Just because you can't find any examples of games that don't use Live for online play on the consoles doesn't mean that it's not possible. It can just simply mean that it's easier to use Live than roll your own.

NeoThermic


I never said it did. Hence why I used the word imply.

One thing, however, which suggests I'm correct is EA's games. I know for a fact that EA provide the servers for Burnout Paradise and older Burnout games, (and I think all their other games), yet it still requires a Gold account to play online. If it wasn't Microsoft's policy to force having Gold accounts, then I can't see why this would be the case.

As for cross platform Gold requirements, Microsoft themselves have said Gold membership is required. Can't argue with this source.

Gold Membership Features
...
• Cross-platform gameplay
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Postby skull13 » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:25 am

So... the question really is: Does M$ control cross-platform for the 360?

Personally, my bet is YES.

I DO wish it weren't so, however... :(
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Postby zach » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:38 am

Based on what I've learnt in this topic (mainly that you - as a developer - are free to implement online functionality whatever way you please), I don't think Microsoft "controls" cross-platform.

Honestly, anyone could write some DS-PC cross-platform netcode with Devkitpro.

I'm sure the same applies for 360 development - as long as you have access to input/output from/to TCP/UDP (all those slashes :P), I don't see any way for Microsoft to hinder your cross-platformity, bar a contract (or a firmware update), of course.
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Postby RabidZombie » Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:22 pm

zanzer7 wrote:Based on what I've learnt in this topic (mainly that you - as a developer - are free to implement online functionality whatever way you please), I don't think Microsoft "controls" cross-platform.

Honestly, anyone could write some DS-PC cross-platform netcode with Devkitpro.

I'm sure the same applies for 360 development - as long as you have access to input/output from/to TCP/UDP (all those slashes :P), I don't see any way for Microsoft to hinder your cross-platformity, bar a contract (or a firmware update), of course.


Code must be signed to run (well, except for when exploits are found). This allows Microsoft to have complete control over everything. The developers have to abide to Microsoft's terms, or otherwise, they can't sell their game. And since Microsoft test all Title Updates and Marketplace downloads (and presumably shipping executables), getting past this is incredibly difficult without hiding the feature (which makes it useless for the consumer, as they won't know about it).

If anyone could run any code they liked on the console, Microsoft wouldn't have this grip over features and the pricing of aformentioned features, and cross platform would be as difficult as Windows-Mac-Linux crossplatformabilty (I just invented a word). However, this isn't the case, as unfortunate as it is.

Developers can implement online any way they like, but as has been shown with custom content for the 360, just because it's codable, doesn't mean it's necessarily allowed. The only cross platform games for the 360 are in fact first party Microsoft titles limited to Vista only (something I didn't realise before) with Games for Windows - Live Gold accounts required. Quite clearly, this is all a money game to Microsoft, and nothing to do with providing for the user.

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