Little Big Indie Kids

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Kadayi
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Postby Kadayi » Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:59 pm

nvrmor wrote:if all you got out of that video was portals, you really need to watch the whole thing again, and pay attention this time. listening might help as well. there was a hell of alot more going on than just portals. not to mention that what they were doing with the portals was far beyond what anybody else has done. very far beyond.


I'm sorry but if the only rebuttal you have is to lamely attempt to patronise me then clearly there is a lot less going on in the Room than even I imagined. It's an interactive environment, certainly with some interesting ideas, but it's a long way from what I'd consider a game, same with Littlebigplanet. It's a glorified sandbox, nothing more. Coming up with something innovative is one thing, but taking those elements and crafting them into an experience that is more than the sum of it's parts is a whole different ball game.

Molyneux is a great ideas man, but he is much akin to Steve Jobs in terms of the reality distortion field that comes out of his presentations. Everything these men talk about sounds purposeful, but when you view things in the cold light of day once the glamour has worn off then it becomes a different matter.

Yes the room is a cool looking venture, the hyper detail, the ageing of objects, the resizing portals and the making of items from clay blocks, are all interesting ideas. But to what good purpose can these things be put in terms of making a game? Molyneux expects me to 'play around', my question is why? What's my motive for wanting to age fruit or delve around in the detail of the sofa? Simple curiosity is only going to get you so far. I want to see the game that makes it necessary to engage with these tools/features and offers up motivation to do so.

Consider a company like Valve, they developed a physics based game engine (Source engine) because industry wide, people were flocking to the new 3D physics technology, but rather than throw it in there with no good purpose beyond simply rag dolling corpses (Max Payne 2, Deus Ex 2, etc etc) they decided to model their entire gaming experience around the interplay of the player with a physics driven environment. They developed something and then they ran with it, and made a genuinely compelling gaming experience.
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NeoThermic
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Postby NeoThermic » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:32 pm

Kadayi wrote:Molyneux is a great ideas man, but he is much akin to Steve Jobs in terms of the reality distortion field that comes out of his presentations. Everything these men talk about sounds purposeful, but when you view things in the cold light of day once the glamour has worn off then it becomes a different matter.


I'm beginning to ponder if the size of the RDF is inversely proportional to the amount of hair on the head of the person...

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Kadayi
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Postby Kadayi » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:26 pm

NeoThermic wrote:I'm beginning to ponder if the size of the RDF is inversely proportional to the amount of hair on the head of the person...

NeoThermic


No doubt the maestro that is apparently Mark Healey, will be able to make a sandbox environment for us to find out in :wink:
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Postby NeoThermic » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:07 pm

Kadayi wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:I'm beginning to ponder if the size of the RDF is inversely proportional to the amount of hair on the head of the person...

NeoThermic


No doubt the maestro that is apparently Mark Healey, will be able to make a sandbox environment for us to find out in :wink:


I'm not sure, the guy has far too much hair! ;)

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Postby KingAl » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:28 am

NeoThermic wrote:
Kadayi wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:I'm beginning to ponder if the size of the RDF is inversely proportional to the amount of hair on the head of the person...

NeoThermic


No doubt the maestro that is apparently Mark Healey, will be able to make a sandbox environment for us to find out in :wink:


I'm not sure, the guy has far too much hair! ;)

NeoThermic


Help! The winking smilies are attacking. ;)
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Postby xander » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:34 am

Does that mean I have a massive RDF? I have no hair... ;)

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Postby NeoThermic » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:02 am

xander wrote:Does that mean I have a massive RDF? I have no hair... ;)

xander


Here's a quick test. Walk through a wall.

Did you succeed? If so, then you're altering reality at an alarming rate! ;)

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Postby xander » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:43 am

NeoThermic wrote:
xander wrote:Does that mean I have a massive RDF? I have no hair... ;)

xander


Here's a quick test. Walk through a wall.

Did you succeed? If so, then you're altering reality at an alarming rate! ;)

NeoThermic

I got my arm through, but got stuck at the shoulder. :(

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Postby Kadayi » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:05 pm

xander wrote:I got my arm through, but got stuck at the shoulder. :(

xander



I bet if you shaved underarm, you'd get through :wink:
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Postby tabmaster » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:28 pm

Dear Chris,

I think that I understand what you at Introversion are feeling right now - being in a mood when seeing what other people can do in only half the time maybe you would need. This especially holds when you are used to be successful since winning this award (last year?).

Nevertheless, I think you should focus on who you are, what your goals have been and why Introversions exists. Your goal - as far as i know - was not to win the indie-awards regularly, because you as a tiny team of geniouses develop all the most innovative, trendy and also grafically advanced games for big players like sony.

Instead I think your approach was to say: Well, there are many gorgious games out there, and everything is getting even more unbelievable. So we don't need to do that, too. We make different games. That's what we are - independent.

Nobody knew that a few years later there would be a whole scene of Indie-developers. And even if the award name contains "independent", that does not mean that this is your category. I think you wanted to stand aside, doing your thing without looking what others might do. If that feeds you - all the better.

But now to some words on "Little Big Planet". Surely, these guys seem to rule. Everybody loves them, the game design is inspired, and fancy game physics combined with naive minimalistic-what-ever-graphics are sooo cool and innovative. Moreover, they have the Bullfrog/Lionhead-Veterans-Bonus, because most people found these companies' games ingenious - ignoring that they got boring after the (x+1)th level and that they lacked a story.

But would "Little Big Planet" be a typical Introversion game? I don't think so. Somehow it is too much mainstream (in the independent way). While appearing as true avantgarde, its graphics aren't hacked by some geniouses during a night, but (like South Park) created by expensive professionals, which just have been inspired by some freaky ideas.

In contrast, Introversions games always seem to focus on the game behind the graphics, which in turn have to meet some standards, however.

The point is: There is no more reason to worry about Little Big Planet than to worry about Kill Zone. As long as developing true independent games feeds you, you should be happy.

In fact, I'm jalous. I also try do develop a game in my spare time, which is some kind of logic-driven incredible machine without physics. Finally, it's all about getting colored marbles to goals, which is supported by black tool marbles, bombs and some fancy game elements like light triggers, teleporters, reroutes and so on.

Regards, tabmaster
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Postby wwarnick » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:58 pm

No matter what anyone says, flying around through portals is fun. Narbacular drop is fun and portal will be better.

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Postby KingAl » Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:26 am

I don't think anyone implied that portal-based gameplay is bad, they merely stated that it couldn't be touted as an example of someone's prowess/originality in game design, since it has now entered the 'mainstream'.
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Postby ZakGordon » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:11 pm

This is a reply to Chris's post, but i will take time to say hi to all the other guys here first - erm Hi, I'm Zak and as with most/all of you also an interested fan of IV's games and game making process.

Ok Chris this may turn out to be quite a long reply based around your overall blog post.

As a 'boss'(i.e non-pc programmer,passable artist/sound dude,game designer by default' jack-of-all-trades master of none etc) of my own emerging indie company i know just how frustrating it can be when you see+hear all about the money that the games industry has sloshing around...and yet you still don't own that solar powered eco-friendly future car you've always wanted(not everyone wants a ferrari right?).

I've been toying with the idea of just going the easy route - try to sell up to a big publisher and taste the gravy. Still like yourself i am not convinced this would enable to let me make the games i want to make(and play). I know a couple of friends that went into the mainstream industry, they got the office desk+salary etc but had to give up on the games they wanted to make as pretty much all that was decided in the boardroom by the money people+boss men.

I've been a gamer and small time programmer since the ZX81 days, and if there is one thing that gets proven to me as each new year passes by and we get the glut of mainstream titles; it's that it gets harder to find games I actually want to play+buy. And it's nothing to do with being jaded or getting older(I've hit the big 30 now!) - I live and breath gaming everyday. I sink my teeth into games like Xcom/Civ/Elite/Morrowind/Football manager/Settlers II etc over and over. And when I am not playing, I am designing/drawing/creating games i know i want to play.

And the reason for me is that the mainstream has become all about the graphics - it's sort of pasted itself into it's own corner and has no other option. To succeed in the mainstream it helps if you have that team(pick a number larger than your whole team currently) of graphics artists that can give you that 'next-gen'(which is kinda current gen now i suppose?) look. And with that comes cost, financial for sure but also gamewise in many cases i would argue.

Still this is the kicker for me. Are these games any better than what went 10 or 20 years ago? In some ways yes I would argue. In terms of production quality+slickness overall for sure. Sound and music also for the most part, even though i am very partial to those 'sid-chip' 8 bit music tracks from the 80's and early 90's.

Still the original Civ+Pirates!, Elite, Way of the exploding fist(or International Karate), Jet Pac, Sabre Wulf, Exile etc are all as engaging, fun and as good as(better than?) the best games I have played on any of the next-gen consoles. So while the best games of that early era of home computing are as good/fun to play as much of the current crop, the worst games of yesteryear(and there were some real dogs!) are probably worse than the worst of todays.

In a way I am glad that can be argued as being the case, after 20+ years you would hope the general level of game creation would improve as we learn from our mistakes(although a lot of that still goes on!).

To bring this back to LBP for a moment, well i can't help but be pleased that it looks good and may do very well. My consoles gather dust most of the time. Morrowind+Knights of the Republic kept the xbox dust free for a good year, and that was about the best that platform had to offer me. Harvest moon+Animal crossing keeps my other halfs Game Cube in use, and both of those games have that 'unusual' element that LBP seems to offer - something we should never be sad to see in a 90% stale and generic mainstream industry. lol even if the idea wasn't our own :wink:

So what the hell am I getting at with this rather long first post on your blog forum? I'm not totally sure. Maybe just to say that we all can get a little worn down by being close to the flame all the time? Sometimes it's good to step back and do something completely different for a while to help re-energize the creativity.

Also people like us are doing what were doing for a reason. Those reasons may have all different layers of personal specifics, but ultimately i guess the common root theme is because we are growing more disinterested in what the commercial games market produces for the most part and we still do love gaming.
Games are not made for us anymore so we try to make our own without getting lost in the endlessly hungry giant that is the Games Industry(tm). And it's tough when you don't play ball with the bankers, they are not in it for the games period; they are in it for money and profits come first, "good" game a distant second.

The good news is that as this method of game development continues the more space it creates for people who are not interested in all that. People like yourselves at IV. So i would argue that guys like yourself are very well positioned in that you have a presence and a great reputation.
The whole internet thing still hasn't really kicked of here in the uk - we seem to be a good decade behind the usa+australia in terms of the infrastructure and general spread of home based broadband. That is vital for the growth of real indiegame devs, especially when retail shelf space is so often tied up by the mainstream(great to hear about your deal with stores in the usa! that's a great breakthrough).

Anyway sorry for that LARGE ramble!! Keep up the good work and as long as you work to your strengths(rather than be what your not?) I'm sure you'll come up with the next LBP.......only better.....and on linux also.

kind regards,

ZakGordon.
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Postby GotNext » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:50 pm

Little Big Planet looks quite great, I must admite. Rag Doll Kung Fu was a game I was happy to support, but ultimately, it was not a terribly great one. It certainly had style and art going for it, as well as a sense of humor, but a drag and drop interface for a fighting game was maybe too weird an idea.

I definitely hear Chris on the art direction thing. Introversion doesn't have experienced artists like an offshoot of Lionhead is going to, but Introversion has never had a problem making beautiful looking games despite this.

As for the office, well... I appreciate the working from home thing, I do it myself, but if you aren't clocking hours and the office is just a hub for development it can be great for the exchange of idea and keeping the creativity flowing from everyone. As long as you don't make it a grind when it doesn't have to be.
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Postby GotNext » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:09 pm

Oh yeah, and if you really want to feel like crap, remember those Project Offset demos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw_QBGUYmy0

The Offset team at the time was 3 people (a coder, a musician, and an artist). The entire engine is coded by a single guy. Their company to this day is about the same size as Introversion.

Also, I watched those demos run on a GeForce 7900.

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