Are pointless polls annoying?

The place to hang out and talk about totally anything general.

Well, are they?

Yes
4
19%
No
3
14%
Meaningless third option
9
43%
They provoke admin abuse
5
24%
 
Total votes: 21
User avatar
MAdMaN
level4
level4
Posts: 899
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Manchester, England

Re: f

Postby MAdMaN » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:34 pm

Colytic wrote:
microchip08 wrote:But Opera durn't respect t'freedoms! Mozilla seems to keep end-user privacy and security to heart; I'm less sure about any of the other mainstream browser developers.


Mhm, well, ironically Mozilla track you on their site. But Firefox is indeed the best option privacy-wise. I use:
    - Adblock Plus with EasyPrivacy, EasyList, and Fanboy's List: more to kill tracking than to hide adverts, I respect that as a revenue stream but the developers do allow 'non-intrusive' adverts.

Available for Opera.

Colytic wrote:
    - BetterPrivacy: kills Flash tracking cookies ('LSOs').

You can do this yourself from Adobe Flash's Website Storage Settings Panel.

Colytic wrote:
    - HTTPS-Everywhere: of course, uses HTTPS wherever possible.

Redirect to HTTPS is Opera's equivalent. You could also edit your hosts file.

Colytic wrote:
    - DuckDuckGoPlus: with DuckDuckGo as my homepage. An anonymous search engine that also features shortcuts to sites (eg type in !yt to jump to YouTube).

DuckDuckGo is one of the search engines that Opera includes by default.
User avatar
jelco
level5
level5
Posts: 6018
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:45 am
Location: Cygnus X-1
Contact:

Re: f

Postby jelco » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:12 pm

microchip08 wrote:I miss the weekly polls that started some interesting discussions.

Wow, that seems like ages ago. Perhaps a fun experiment for the summer to see if I can come up with enough inspired ideas to reboot that series.

MAdMaN wrote:Redirect to HTTPS is Opera's equivalent. You could also edit your hosts file.

Say what now? Would you mind explaining how exactly one would edit one's hosts file for this purpose?

Jelco
"The ships hung in the sky much the same way that bricks don't."
- Douglas Adams
User avatar
MAdMaN
level4
level4
Posts: 899
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Manchester, England

Re: f

Postby MAdMaN » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:19 pm

jelco wrote:Say what now? Would you mind explaining how exactly one would edit one's hosts file for this purpose?

My mistake. With it being so warm I haven't been sleeping properly and my mind gets a little muddled.
User avatar
NeatNit
level5
level5
Posts: 2929
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:41 pm
Location: Israel
Contact:

Re: f

Postby NeatNit » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:25 pm

MAdMaN wrote:
jelco wrote:Say what now? Would you mind explaining how exactly one would edit one's hosts file for this purpose?

My mistake. With it being so warm I haven't been sleeping properly and my mind gets a little muddled.

Excuses excuses.

In the same spirit, my idiocy lately is caused by an extreme lack of physical fitness, which damages the brain's functions.

I refuse to work out!

okay maybe just a little
User avatar
MAdMaN
level4
level4
Posts: 899
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Manchester, England

Re: f

Postby MAdMaN » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:35 pm

NeatNit wrote:
MAdMaN wrote:
jelco wrote:Say what now? Would you mind explaining how exactly one would edit one's hosts file for this purpose?

My mistake. With it being so warm I haven't been sleeping properly and my mind gets a little muddled.

Excuses excuses.

My bedroom's at the top of a four storey house and has south facing windows. In the past four nights I've had around 12 hours sleep.
User avatar
Colytic
level4
level4
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:24 pm
Location: Somewhere outside London

Re: f

Postby Colytic » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:36 pm

I didn't mean to say such features were exclusive to Firefox. The LSO plugin does delete automatically, though. That was just a quick guide to setting things up. Arguably, Firefox has the edge over Opera as it's entirely open-source. But I will admit that is somewhat negligible.

NeatNit wrote:f I live my whole life with my privacy violated online, and this doesn't hurt me in any way, then did it really matter?


Personally I can't stand my privacy violated in such a way, and if I were to search for something personal - eg health - I recoil at the thought of that truth being sold for commercial gain. Each to his own, I suppose.
User avatar
NeatNit
level5
level5
Posts: 2929
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:41 pm
Location: Israel
Contact:

Postby NeatNit » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:04 pm

I saw one of DuckDuckGo's websites explaining the filter bubble. I realize I sound like a tool and a sucker, maybe I am... But I genuinely like finding what I was looking for right at the top. Just about everyone I've ever met wouldn't type facebook.com into the address bar. They would type google.com, then type 'facebook' into the search bar, then click on the first result. Okay, maybe not facebook specifically but most sites, many obscure. Personally I don't do that, but think how beneficial it is for those people to have their most used sites appear at the top? And generally when I make a search, I find exactly what I wanted to find, in cases where I know someone else's search for the same thing might not have found it. That's a feature I really like, I don't think it blocks stuff out - it just presents me with what it thinks I'm trying to find. Isn't that the goal of a search engine?

I might as well be mayor of tool-city. I use a Nexus 4 (might as well call it a googlephone), I use Google Calendar, I use Google Contacts, and I really enjoy seeing how everything integrates with each other. My contacts' birthdays (which I try to input :)) show up in my calendar. I also subscribed to a calendar of Hebrew/Jewish holidays, since I never keep track of them. Gmail also improves when contacts are so easy to find. And yes, I'm completely aware that just about my entire life is stored in Google servers. I don't care. It makes things easier. It makes things faster.

DuckDuckGo doesn't tell websites what I searched for to get there.... So? Websites need to do their statistics, who am I to stop them? Who are DDG to stop them? Privacy is compromised, and it gives companies a lot of information and a lot of money. But I really like to think that, from my perspective, the bottom line is that my experience is made better. How is that bad?

So I am a tool, defending anyone who gives me the false impression that everything they're doing is for my benefit. I don't care. It just seems easier to accept it than to fight it.





Also, I had to type duckduckgo 4 times because I kept typoing it as fuckfuckgo.
User avatar
MAdMaN
level4
level4
Posts: 899
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Manchester, England

Re: f

Postby MAdMaN » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:12 pm

Colytic wrote:Arguably, Firefox has the edge over Opera as it's entirely open-source. But I will admit that is somewhat negligible.

Something being open source doesn't automatically mean it's better than its closed source equivalent.
User avatar
NeatNit
level5
level5
Posts: 2929
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:41 pm
Location: Israel
Contact:

Re: f

Postby NeatNit » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:15 pm

MAdMaN wrote:
Colytic wrote:Arguably, Firefox has the edge over Opera as it's entirely open-source. But I will admit that is somewhat negligible.

Something being open source doesn't automatically mean it's better than its closed source equivalent.

True, but it makes it slightly more likely that if it's doing something evil it will get caught.

Open-source makes people think "hey, if they let me read the entire full source, that probably means they have nothing to hide! Surely this is trustworthy," while truly it could be just as evil as the next browser.
User avatar
Colytic
level4
level4
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:24 pm
Location: Somewhere outside London

Postby Colytic » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:22 pm

MAdMaN wrote:Something being open source doesn't automatically mean it's better than its closed source equivalent.


I would contend, privacy-wise, it absolutely does. If Skype was open-source, would PRISM have been implemented? One of the greatest attractions of Linux is that it's in the community's hands.

NeatNit wrote:but think how beneficial it is for those people to have their most used sites appear at the top?


Indeed, which is why for complex queries I type !g to use Google (technical questions etc): DDG doesn't cut it yet. Hopefully it will get there, and I use it when I can. The convenience is a strong tug, though.

NeatNit wrote:Also, I had to type duckduckgo 4 times because I kept typoing it as fuckfuckgo


Hahahaha. Also, they've taken your SOUL AAAAA.
Deepsmeg
level5
level5
Posts: 6510
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2002 1:26 pm
Location: Register 2102
Contact:

Postby Deepsmeg » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:47 am

Image

Fail colour scheme is fail.
Image
User avatar
jelco
level5
level5
Posts: 6018
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:45 am
Location: Cygnus X-1
Contact:

Postby jelco » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:52 pm

Colytic wrote:I would contend, privacy-wise, it absolutely does. If Skype was open-source, would PRISM have been implemented? One of the greatest attractions of Linux is that it's in the community's hands.

First off, there should really be a Godwin-like law concerning PRISM. Second, your argument goes down the drain when Apache Hadoop is one of the notable pieces of software supposedly involved which is completely open source.

Going with something because it's open source without any further arguments is naive at best. Why?

  • When making it possible for every scriptkiddie with an "I can do programming me" attitude to contribute to your project, you need experienced and
    responsible maintainers to make sure only quality code ends up in the stable branch.
  • In order to justify the "everyone can see the code they use and complain if they think it's wrong" you need people (outside the project) to actually do that. In reality, there's lots of projects no-one has ever bothered to look at.
  • Code quality and maintainability requires a team working together closely and having the same ideas. In reality, various styles end up in 1 project and maintainers and developers can tend to get lost in political nonsense surrounding a project.
  • Community support is only as good as the people in your community. More often than not, the people with enough brains, tact, language skills and patience to give proper tech support will find they have better things to do than get cursed at by random nobodies who think they know software.
  • Open source (by itself) gives you zero guarantees about a project's future.

Before you go off thinking I'm opposed to open source, let me point out that I use Linux Mint on my laptop, manage various servers run on Debian, CentOS and FreeBSD, am part of an organisation hosting (amongst others) ftp.debian.org and (until Mozilla recently decided to start using their own CDN) the biggest Firefox download mirror in the world, and earn most of my money by programming in Python and building Linux management tools.

I'm also an Opera user. My desktop runs Windows, my office desktop is a Mac. I use various Google services, and I have a Facebook account.

I use Linux where I can because it is greatly manageable and customizeable as a server platform, and I know how reliable it is through years of experience. I use Linux Mint on my lappy because it's lightweight and I love its GUI. I program Python because its extremely powerful yet simple and readable. And I support open source projects when there's more merits than being open source. When you ignore open/closed source, you start judging something on its actual values.

Personally, I use Opera because it is the only browser I've ever seen be stable with 50+ tabs open (which is my default), has a proper mouse gesture engine, works sleek and fast and has a significantly better track record patching security vulnerabilities than any other browser (look, it's a source!). I have yet to see someone substantially back up any claims about privacy issues in Opera. Meanwhile, I do not use Firefox because I find it's crash-prone, you need loads of extensions to get something that would fit my workflow and recent changes seem to contiuously favour fancy looks over performance.

Basically my message is: learn to think for yourself, beyond what the vendors themselves tell you about why you should trust them. I've made very conscious decisions about using certain services and products because of their convenience and taking into account that means companies might know "stuff" about me. I've seen self-absorbed assholes claim they shit gold because they call their products open source, which I decided to reject, and I've seen closed source products be better than any other attempt could even dream about being, which I decided to adopt. I'm not saying you shouldn't care about privacy or open source, but making any of those your top priority in decision making is basically saying to yourself you're going to make misguided judgments.

I've also learnt to not blindly trust anything anyone says, even if the worldwide media get collectively riled up when some guy mails documents no-one will ever be able to reliably verify. Besides, if you really believe everything about the whole PRISM thing and are making such a big deal out of it, you really aren't as privacy-conscious as you claim to be, since a) everyone with even a hint of know-how in the field would've told you all this was possible even before Enemy Of The State made it to the cinemas in 1998, and b) why didn't you start such a riot when the PATRIOT act was passed, which was basically just a press release announcing the start of such a programme.

tl;dr: I call shenanigans.

Jelco
User avatar
Colytic
level4
level4
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:24 pm
Location: Somewhere outside London

Postby Colytic » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:36 pm

Image

You, sir, have constructed a straw man! I agree entirely, but I only said so regarding trust. Going with open-source blindly is indeed arrogant and naive. As for the other statements - for Firefox, which a thriving community and in a field where privacy is the utmost, I don't think these apply.

jelco wrote:First off, there should really be a Godwin-like law concerning PRISM.

I absolutely disagree, PRISM has helped wake people up to how much data consumption and monitoring happens.
jelco wrote:Second, your argument goes down the drain when Apache Hadoop is one of the notable pieces of software supposedly involved which is completely open source.

A non sequitur. The US government using software != software intrinsically spies on all users. Now as for Skype, well, they spent months implementing PRISM.
Jelco wrote:Open source (by itself) gives you zero guarantees about a project's future.

Of course, as with any free project really. But when the community is willing to carry itself forward it potentially has a longer life-cycle than a proprietary one.
Jelco wrote:my office desktop is a Mac...I use various Google services, and I have a Facebook account.

Mac - nothing to complain about there really, although I personally don't like them (I won't resurrect the age-old war again). As for Google and Facebook - your choice I suppose; I wouldn't on principle. If you're fine with what they do, then there isn't much of a problem.
Jelco wrote:Personally, I use Opera because it is the only browser I've ever seen be stable with 50+ tabs open (which is my default), has a proper mouse gesture engine, works sleek and fast and has a significantly better track record patching security vulnerabilities than any other browser (look, it's a source!). I have yet to see someone substantially back up any claims about privacy issues in Opera. Meanwhile, I do not use Firefox because I find it's crash-prone, you need loads of extensions to get something that would fit my workflow and recent changes seem to contiuously favour fancy looks over performance.

I didn't point out privacy issues in Opera and do not find the issues you have relevant to myself - again, each to his own.
Jelco wrote:I've also learnt to not blindly trust anything anyone says, even if the worldwide media get collectively riled up when some guy mails documents no-one will ever be able to reliably verify.

Implying? PRISM is a conspiracy? Well, if so, that's a pleasant surprise.
Jelco wrote:Besides, if you really believe everything about the whole PRISM thing and are making such a big deal out of it, you really aren't as privacy-conscious as you claim to be, since a) everyone with even a hint of know-how in the field would've told you all this was possible even before...

I haven't made a huge deal. I never trusted these companies anyway, and don't use them if I want privacy.
Jelco wrote:b) why didn't you start such a riot when the PATRIOT act was passed, which was basically just a press release announcing the start of such a programme.

I don't live in the venerable US. Here in the UK, we shot down a similar attempt, although GCHQ are believed to have somehow been involved in that kind of activity.
Last edited by Colytic on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
NeatNit
level5
level5
Posts: 2929
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:41 pm
Location: Israel
Contact:

Postby NeatNit » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:52 pm

If anyone thinks their country doesn't do this he's just being naive. PRISM isn't the least bit surprising.

This is how many terrorists get caught and many harmful actions are prevented. These things happen right under our noses all the time and we don't even know about it, thanks to your local security / military.

If you'd rather risk that just so your government doesn't know you googled "waffle pants" or that you talked to your friends about GTA on Skype last night, well... Be my guest.

And remember that this data they collect is just data. It's used to search for threats, and everything else is just thrown away. I'm sure no one gets their kicks out of reading about random people they've never met.
User avatar
jelco
level5
level5
Posts: 6018
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:45 am
Location: Cygnus X-1
Contact:

Postby jelco » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:29 pm

Colytic wrote:Now as for Skype, well, they spent months implementing PRISM.

I have yet to see any hard proof that this is the case. Until then, I'm not convinced. The purported NSA slides are not a source.

Colytic wrote:But when the community is willing to carry itself forward it potentially has a longer life-cycle than a proprietary one.

How and/or why? When times are tough, one needs motivation. Getting paid to develop software motivates more than having a userbase claim it's good and are not giving you anything in return. Whether a community will carry itself forward or not depends entirely on the kind of people you have in it.

Colytic wrote:Implying? PRISM is a conspiracy? Well, if so, that's a pleasant surprise.

There is, at this moment, very little reason to not assume Snowden had no access to anything of the likes, simply made stuff up and sent it to some impressionable journalists and is getting way more attention than he deserves. I'm not saying I think all of it's made up, but some claims that are flying around are highly questionable and I attribute to media trying to make money by selling fear. (Yeah yeah conspiracy theories and irony, but come on.)

Colytic wrote:I don't live in the venerable US. Here in the UK, we shot down a similar attempt, although GCHQ are believed to have somehow been involved in that kind of activity.

Precisely this shows you don't know what the PATRIOT act entails. I suggest you read up.

Jelco

Return to “Introversion Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests