[Minecraft] Introversion Server

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World Reset when Minecraft 1.2 has stabilised?

Poll ended at Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:41 am

Never!
0
No votes
No, but will accept if necessary
0
No votes
No strong opinions either way
4
31%
Yes, but not required
5
38%
Please!
4
31%
 
Total votes: 13
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zach
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Postby zach » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:32 pm

Shwart!! wrote:[...]we could use a fairly complex redstone system I devised that automatically detects fires and puts up firebreaks to combat it. This has the drawback of requiring hundreds of sticky pistons per 40*40 area, so it would be over 28 thousand sticky pistons for full coverage, not to mention the similar amounts of redstone and 14 thousand water blocks it would take. And it isn't even 100% effective.

I bet this can be optimised. To the batmob-- uh, creative flatland! (Mind sharing your current design?)


Shwart!! wrote:It seems that deserts cannot have thunderstorms, so if we found one large enough, it would prevent lightning from being a concern.

As fire pretty much exclusively travels upwards, thunderstorms shouldn't become a huge issue either way.


EDIT: I tried a very naïve approach: bands of water sources on the inside of the structure: Image

In most cases, this is extremely effective at stopping accidental ignition at the foot of the structure. This is what happened on average: Image

Slightly worse is if there is accidental ignition on a layer without a water strip, glass indicating burnt-down wool (still very manageable in my humble opinion): Image

The approach even subdues deliberate ignition fairly well. This is what happened when the entire bottom row was ignited: Image

Worst case is ignition of the entire second-lowest row: Image

Even with deliberate, knowledge-based griefing like the above, the fire is handled a lot better than without any countermeasures, as seen in this example with no protection: Image


I still need to test multiple times with a full 40x40 wall, though for now I would say this is at least an "acceptable" level of risk management. I would not be surprised to see an increase in effectiveness when applied on a larger scale.

This approach can most probably be improved further.
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Feud
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Postby Feud » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:29 pm

Couldn't you just place a water block at the top of the interior and let it flow down? It would only cover a single column of blocks, but it wouldn't require all the glass.

I'm curious though if all that flowing water would bog down the server.
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Postby zach » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:47 pm

If you just place a water block at the top, it won't flow into (and extinguish) the wool holes created by the fire. That being said, you only really need one water source every ~14 blocks, per strip, or even less if you're willing to make the internal side wider.
The contraption just becomes more effective with more water sources, and since they're amazingly easy to generate; why not?

The glass is for visibility while prototyping. We could just as well use cobblestone, or an internal layer of wool for that matter (to hide the safeguard from plain sight, and make the interior as pretty as the exterior while still being protected by a single layer of water strips).

"Flowing" water does not bog down the server. Only updating the flow of water would, and even then, the resources required for that are pretty minor; it's not all happening at the same time :)

-----

EDIT: I am looking into a more effective solution, but I need to be able to detect water before I can implement it.

Do any of you know a reliable way to detect water (or the lack thereof) in 1.1 and above?

-----

EDIT2: A 40x40 construction is indeed more effective at extinguishing fires.

Observe the worst cases I was able to achieve.

Worst case result of accidental ignition: Image

Worst case result of intentional ignition (griefing), entire layer 0 ignited: Image

Worst case result of intentional ignition (griefing); entire layer 1 ignited: Image

And finally, while the next scenario includes a manually triggered delayed waterfall (one piston per column, at the moment), a water detector could trigger the waterfall automatically as soon as any block (on an odd-numbered layer) has burnt away.

The result of having the entire layer 1 ignited, and thereby triggering a waterfall: Image


Keep in mind that even in the very unlikely event that someone wants to seriously grief the structure, the damage should not exceed what is seen in the last picture.

The entire water strip + waterfall protection system only takes up one block in width, meaning an internal layer of wool (if we choose to) would only be displaced by 2 blocks, and the internal layer would be covered by the protection system as well.

I think this wool thing is indeed manageable :D

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EDIT3: Still not convinced? Here's a video of the process: http://youtu.be/S3jFLtMj-iE

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EDIT4: As Xocrates made clear to me, we do have daily backups that - currently - are stored forever. We may not even need a safeguard.

Furthermore, I propose we build the structure at elevation 16; This drastically decreases the amount of ground that must be excavated, and additionally rids us of void fog at the base of the structure. Finally, it is a power of two :D
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Postby Shwart!! » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:17 am

I have two ways of doing detection. First, water breaks redstone, so we could have ablative lines to detect the flow of water. Second, one can put redstone on a second layer of wool behind the main wall. This too is ablative, relying on the fire rather than on water.
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/860/detectorstrips.png
We could probably use both, for decent reliability.

How are you doing water release with a single piston, though? I can't get it in less than 2 per cell of water. (Still working on my design, I'll post it when I'm done.)
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Postby zach » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:52 am

Shwart!! wrote:I have two ways of doing detection. First, water breaks redstone, so we could have ablative lines to detect the flow of water.

I would rather we did not consume any finite resources.


Shwart!! wrote:Second, one can put redstone on a second layer of wool behind the main wall. This too is ablative, relying on the fire rather than on water.
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/860/detectorstrips.png

I don't get this. How does it work? What does it do? How can we use it?


Shwart!! wrote:How are you doing water release with a single piston, though? I can't get it in less than 2 per cell of water. (Still working on my design, I'll post it when I'm done.)

It's almost too easy: Image

Repeat horisontally ad libitum, and cover the top green wool with a line of redstone; it will activate the piston underneath.

I will create a picture showing the lack of required width for a double-sided redundancy (local + waterfall) fire protection system, in a bit.
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Postby Shwart!! » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:25 am

I put a pic in of my design, but basically the fire burns through the path. In both cases, the redstone is dropped, not destroyed; one way, fire is the trigger, the other water is the trigger.

Also, that design only works if you don't have a wall to move out of the way. I don't see how you could possibly use that from behind the wall of the structure.
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Postby zach » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:33 am

Shwart!! wrote:In both cases, the redstone is dropped, not destroyed; one way, fire is the trigger, the other water is the trigger.

That still means we have to be there (and close) to pick up the redstone within 5-10 minutes.


Shwart!! wrote:Also, that design only works if you don't have a wall to move out of the way. I don't see how you could possibly use that from behind the wall of the structure.

Dual-wool-layered wall with a single water layer inbetween: Image

Of course, you could make the water layer 3 blocks wide and all but hide the pistons and water.
Alternatively, you could use sticky pistons to completely hide the entire contraption inside the structure (who griefs at vertical layer 37 anyway?).
Finally, you could mix the two and have a dual-layer, internal, hidden contraption.
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Postby Shwart!! » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:38 am

One thing I discovered: if when doing the simple water-break, we use sheets of water sources, we don't have unprotected lines. A sheet works somewhat better than doing it every other line.
It doesn't look like much, but it emits water no matter where the wall breaks.

I also have a system worked out that pulls a line out of the wall to let water out.
If this is done in two separate places, it creates a region that is entirely immune to being burned.

Additionally, I figured out a water detector system that does not consume any resources.
It's a bit complex, but very responsive, and manually toggleable besides.

With these three together, I have a mockup where at the base we have a sheet of water sources behind the wall, and if any of them get tripped they activate the active water layers above, covering the entirety of the region in water to fight the fires. It's quite resource-intensive, but is also wonderfully effective.
Complex innards, though they could probably be streamlined.
The results are quite nice, however.
In practice, it would have a larger area covered by the sheet of water sources, and we'd probably just have one set of the active waterfall near the top, to prevent a catastrophic fire. The two together work very well, and have the benefit of hiding the entire system within the structure.

Here are the results of a test of the system. I pretty much took a lighter and lit everything I could reach, and the fire went nowhere.
Note that the bottom isn't actually covered by the water sheets; I messed up the spacing somewhat, causing the bottom two rows to not be covered. A finalized design would be even more effective, due to correcting this oversight.

The biggest problem I see is: to cover the legs, and just the legs, we'd need ~1200 slime balls.
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Postby Ilenius » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:45 pm

Pretty sure I messed up the proportions on this guy.

Image
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Postby Xocrates » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:15 pm

Ilenius wrote:Pretty sure I messed up the proportions on this guy.

Yup! The accepted proportions would mean that a DG made of 1x1x1 blocks will have a total of 14 blocks.

Mid section will be 4 blocks head to groin, legs will be 3 each, arms will be 2 blocks each.

References
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Postby Ilenius » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:29 pm

Dang. Really should have done my homework before attempting to fit in. Shame on me. But dealing with ice is kind of problematic, so I'm just going to leave it like it is. :P
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Postby Xocrates » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:48 pm

Heh, no worries. I'm pretty sure most of us started with deformed Darwinians :P
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Postby Ilenius » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:01 am

Got it right this time. :wink:

Image
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Postby zach » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:56 am

These structures ... are they on the server?

You seem well off, item-wise :P

How did you build the icewinian?
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Postby Shwart!! » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:58 am

My guess is he dropped water down in the taiga? Would explain the pattern of missing snow.

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