remind me what the meaning of life is?

The place to hang out and talk about totally anything general.

ultimatley, in retrospect, IS LIFE meaningless?

yes
14
47%
no
16
53%
 
Total votes: 30
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Schubdüse
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Postby Schubdüse » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:53 pm

Thank God ( :wink: ) Xocrates, you saved my day!
I wanted to post some of your argumentst, too.

And I would like to ask Teddy Coalition some questions:

1. Why do you eat and what do you eat? (Think biochemical!)
2. Why do all known forms of life share very similar genetic codes?
3. Why do human cancer cells grow when I inject them in NOD-SCID mice?
4. Why does cancer even exist? (A hint: Single cell organisms vs multicellular organisms)
5. Why are we able to manipulate bacteria to produce human proteins (e.g. Insulin)?
6. Why have mitochondria their own independent genome? Why does their DNA show substantial similarity to bacterial genomes?
7. Why have chloroplasts their own genome? Why do they closely resemble cyanobacteria?
8. Why do we have hiccups?
9. Why are men susceptible to hernia?
10. What's so special about Histones, especially H4?

What "missing link" do you want to have? I will try to find it. Apparently you are too lazy to do it for yourself.
But consider this: "Since all species are in transition due to natural selection, the very term "transitional fossil" is essentially a misconception." (Yes, it's a wiki quote.)

I bet you will ignore me, again. BTW: I'm waiting for the "Irreducible complexity argument".

Feud wrote:
Xocrates wrote:- Hybrids, like the Mule.


Or the Prius!


LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! Best joke for days!

But I would like to add the "ligers" and "tigons".

Sorry for being "off topic".
Last edited by Schubdüse on Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rkiver » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:57 pm

No I said Darwinius rhasillae and I mean Darwinius rhasillae.

Also accusing me of saying items that I've only seen on Youtube (which I have not, I'm actually quoting peer reviewed science papers) and then linking to youtube yourself? Well Mas said it rather well on that front. No where has anything I have mentioned cannot be seen via peer reviewed science. EDIT: Ok so you claim it was done ironically, fair enough. I still stand by my points as have not resorting to youtube.

All we've seen from the Bible camp is, well the Bible. Which is hardly accurate or an authority on the truth, or even being good (God does command you to rape and murder after all, and does admit to being a jealous deity at that). Those of you of a religious bent seem to be failing quite well, but keep it up. All you are doing is amusing us.
Last edited by Rkiver on Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mas Tnega » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:04 am

Teddy Coalition wrote:mas tnaga, I was being ironic, incase you missed it. See I can be like that too. Anyone can do it.
Not enough smilies; not buying it.


Also, stop ripping off this too.
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Postby Schubdüse » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:09 am

Dear Rkiver,
am I stupid? No "Darwinius rhasillae" in google search nor Pubmed search. What database do I have to consult?
Vorsprung durch Kraft - Triebwerke saugen - Präzisionsarbeit... Schubdüse.
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Postby Rkiver » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:23 am

I owe an apology, it appears what I was reading had a misprint and it is indeed Darwinius masillae, apologies on that everyone.

However the so called debunking of it which Teddy claims to have occured regarding said fossil, I see no proof of, or actual writings in any journal saying so. I can see one or two in creationist based "science journals" (a contradiction if ever there was one),
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Postby Schubdüse » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:30 am

Dear Rkiver,
np!

rh = m with a dot of fly dirt above the "m". :wink:
Vorsprung durch Kraft - Triebwerke saugen - Präzisionsarbeit... Schubdüse.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:46 am

Rkiver wrote:All we've seen from the Bible camp is, well the Bible. Which is hardly accurate or an authority on the truth, or even being good (God does command you to rape and murder after all, and does admit to being a jealous deity at that). Those of you of a religious bent seem to be failing quite well, but keep it up. All you are doing is amusing us.

In my defense, I was arguing only with others in the Bible camp. :P

For those of us that don't read peer review papers from scientific fields (or any for that matter :P ) and therefore wouldn't know where to even look, what are some that you would consider 'reputable'?
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Postby Why? » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:55 am

Teddy Coalition wrote:1st, Christianity wasn't invented, it is the Bribe of Christ, and it's people are the church.

blah blah blah buncha non-sense


There was no such thing as Christianity before Jesus was born, 2000 years ago. A thousand years before that, there was no such thing as The Bible, or The Torah. 500 years before that, there was no Abraham. So, 3500 years ago, there were no Abrahamic religions. No Islam, No Christianity, No Judaism. The Torah says man was created 5500 years ago. Yet, fossil and DNA evidence says our species originated in Africa 200,000 years ago.

So what was God doing with all the dead souls for the 2000 years before Abraham lived? Or the 194,500 years before that?


For the record, I think The Bible is a great book. There are many great stories in it, that can teach you about life, people and history. I just think pious people take the whole thing out of context. They're not reading the 'word of God'...they're reading stories people wrote thousands of years ago. You shouldn't use the things they wrote to validate yourself, or anyone else. (Although, human nature hasn't changed much, so it's a great guide in that respect.) They were searching for, and assumed, answers that they couldn't yet reach. Just like we do today.

I think if they thought of the after-life more metaphorically, they'd be closer to the true 'word of God'. If you're a loving good-natured person, and you live your life right; it will be full of happiness, and you will die happily, being remembered as a great person. That's 'heaven'. If you're a hateful nasty person, who lives their life wrong; it will be full of pain, and you will die in pain, being remembered as a terrible person...or better yet, forgotten all-together. That's 'hell'. In a nutshell, of course...
Last edited by Why? on Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Daemons » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:15 am

Rkiver wrote:All we've seen from the Bible camp is, well the Bible. Which is hardly accurate or an authority on the truth, or even being good (God does command you to rape and murder after all, and does admit to being a jealous deity at that). Those of you of a religious bent seem to be failing quite well, but keep it up. All you are doing is amusing us.


Where does it say in the Bible, or anywhere, that God commands us to rape and/or murder? Yes, not only does it say that He is a "jealous God", meaning that He doesn't like that other fictional deities steal the attention of many of His followers away from Him, but it even states that "the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." Exodus 34:12-14 http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=Exodus%2034:12-14&passage=exodus%2034:12-14

God is capable of experiencing emotions, especially since mankind is a descendant of God, and therefore, mankind inherits some, not all of His characteristics, in this case, emotion. The only reason we know from right and wrong, or good and evil, is because God chose what is good, and what is bad. God is sinless, that means that even if He does tell us to murder, He isn't actually committing murder, He's telling us to do it, because we're already sinners.

ynbniar wrote:Teddy I understand the meaning of faith and I respect yours, but if all you are going to do is quote passages from the Bible, as we say here, the game's a bogey


Umm, if I'm not mistaken, I believe some of you were complaining to me that I'm basing my arguments on nothing and that if I'm going to argue about this, I need to go read the Bible first. So now that Teddy Coalition is clearly using the Bible to support his arguments, you're going to complain about that too? So which is it? Do you want us to use the Bible to support our arguments, or not?

Why? wrote:There was no such thing as Christianity before Jesus was born, 2000 years ago. A thousand years before that, there was no such thing as The Bible, or The Torah. 500 years before that, there was no Abraham. So, 3500 years ago, there were no Abrahamic religions. No Islam, No Christianity, No Judaism. The Torah says man was created 5500 years ago. Yet, fossil and DNA evidence says our species originated in Africa 200,000 years ago.

So what was God doing with all the dead souls for the 2000 years before Abraham lived? Or the 194,500 years before that?


Did you ever consider the fact that, because the Bible and the Torah are so old, and have been translated several times, and that those times were different, that when either of them mentions a day or a year, that could have very easily meant something totally different than what it means today. For example, one year in the Bible could have been equivalent to an amount of time that we would consider three months, or 10 years. So, knowing this, maybe 5500 years in the Torah could be the same as 200,000 years by today's standards.
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Postby Schubdüse » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:48 am

Ace Rimmer wrote:For those of us that don't read peer review papers from scientific fields (or any for that matter :P ) and therefore wouldn't know where to even look, what are some that you would consider 'reputable'?


Although your question was adressed to Rkiver, I would like to answer, too. You know, sometimes I liked to be a smart ass. :wink:

If you want to find paper in the biomedical field then you have to check the database called "Pubmed": http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed
The problem is to have the right keywords. For example: If you type in just AIDS you will get 168938 hits!
You can also directly consult the webpages of Nature, Science, Cell, PNAS and so on. Nature also covers Physics for instance.
The problem is, that you will not be able to access most of the papers from your computer. (A lot of papers are for free, but most of them are not.)
I assume, that you have to go to an academic library at an university. In germany there is also a service which makes copy of the paper you want to have for some Euros.

What is a reputable paper? Hell! That's difficult. If the author a nobel prize winner, then sure. :wink:
Also, if you read a paper about "smoking" and it is funded by Philipp Morris you have to be careful. :wink:
A guide for the importance of a journal is the impact factor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_factor
But to be honest, I'm just a poor PhD-Student, I don't care about the impact factor, if the paper answers my questions.
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Postby Teddy Coalition » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:56 am

first answer to Schubduse.

Those a great questions. I'm not a scientist, therefore I don't have all the answers.
But I have found an interesting Article on this.

It goes like this.

The biblical record tells of a global Flood when all created kinds of unclean land animals were reduced to a population of two, the pair that was preserved with Noah on the Ark. After the Flood, these animals reproduced and filled the earth again. Today many of these kinds are represented by whole families. For example, the dog family (Canidae) is believed to represent a created kind. However, this is a very diverse group of animals. There are foxes that are adapted to living in the arctic, and others that live in the desert. There is incredible variety seen in modern domestic dog breeds. Where did all this variety come from? And how could it arise so quickly given that the Flood occurred around 4300 years ago?

The answer to this puzzle is probably quite complex. Some of the variety would have been carried by the pair of animals on the Ark. When parents pass traits on to their offspring, these traits can appear in new combinations in the offspring (Mendelian genetics). Natural selection can weed some existing traits out of a population. However, a close examination reveals that genetic changes have also arisen in this time. Many of these changes do not appear accidental and do not directly cause disease. For this reason, some creationists have proposed that God “designed animals to be able to undergo genetic mutations which would enable them to adapt to a wide range of environmental challenges while minimizing risk.”

It is important to recognize that biologists use several distinct definitions for evolution that are often blurred together as if they are synonymous. Evolution is sometimes defined as “change in the genetic makeup (or gene frequency) of a population over time.” This has been observed; both creationists and evolutionists recognize this as important in building models to help us understand what likely happened in the past. A second definition of evolution involves the idea that all life descended from a common ancestor over millions of years through naturalistic processes. This has not been observed. In fact, it is in direct opposition to the testimony God (the eyewitness to creation) gives us in the Bible. The idea that all life has a common ancestor requires the assumption that the Bible’s history is false, and the assumption that changes which do occur could produce the variety of life we see today from a single-celled ancestor.

With regard to the first definition of evolution, creationists and evolutionists differ in the pattern of genetic changes they should expect to see. The creation model predicts that degenerative changes can occur because mankind sinned and brought death into the world. It also predicts that adaptive changes could occur because God cares for His creation and intends for the earth to be inhabited. Both types of changes have been observed. The fact that some foxes are adapted to live in the arctic while others are adapted to live in the desert fits perfectly with this biblical teaching. While evolutionists accept that these types of changes occur, their model requires that most genetic changes add information to the genome. This pattern has not been observed. Without this pattern they cannot account for the many organs and complex biochemical pathways that exist in animals today. Scientific observations show that there is an overall pattern of decay seen in the genome which is the opposite of what the evolutionary model would predict.

Another difference is the source of the genetic change. Evolutionists assume that random mutations and natural selection can account for the genetic changes that are seen. Since the underlying mechanism is naturalistic, changes were expected to be very slow. Contrary to their expectations, rapid adaptation has been observed, and evolutionists have had to adjust their thinking to accept this. Furthermore, detailed studies of the pattern in genetic differences within related animals don’t make sense if mutations are assumed to always be essentially random events. Something else is clearly going on here. It appears that God has placed some incredible programming into the genomes of the animals he created, and viruses may play some role in this.

(By Dr. Jean K. Lightner)

I'd like to point out that questions directed at me be regarding, The Bible, God, and Creation.

Moving on...

Arkiver, I never accused you of "saying items that I've only seen on Youtube" Just alot of the uneducated atheists.
I wasnt specific. I was just merely pointing out an irony.

Rkiver wrote:
All we've seen from the Bible camp is, well the Bible. Which is hardly accurate or an authority on the truth, or even being good (God does command you to rape and murder after all, and does admit to being a jealous deity at that). .


Wow, what a statement. First of all, when speaking of God being Jelous, it is represented in terms of "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3
and as We know to be the first commandment. As to Murder and rape, prove it. Where in the bible God tells you to do that?


Mas Tnega wrote:Also, stop ripping off this too.


I wasnt ripping that off, I'm well aware of the sacraficial system, and I was searching for a good article on that.
My hand is cramped, and typing all that out would have been strenuous. I have but 1 working arm.
I guess my mistake was not crediting it. My bad there.


In response to Why?, The evidence of the Flood for example, as well as early mesopotamian tablets, have great deal of detail of Pre Flood conditions.
I won't go into this, including the theory that Noah brought baby dinasours on board, and so on...


The Daemons wrote:Did you ever consider the fact that, because the Bible and the Torah are so old, and have been translated several times, and that those times were different, that when either of them mentions a day or a year, that could have very easily meant something totally different than what it means today. For example, one year in the Bible could have been equivalent to an amount of time that we would consider three months, or 10 years. So, knowing this, maybe 5500 years in the Torah could be the same as 200,000 years by today's standards.


That is a wrong assumption my friend.
I happen to believe in the Young Earth Theory, That in Genesis it speaks of Literal Days.

"3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day." Genesis 1:3-5

The word day, is the same one used in the following days of creation.

But thank you for your defense.

(One final note, English is infact my 3rd language, and I'm still learning it, so forgive any spelling mistakes or common typos.
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Postby Why? » Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:16 am

The Daemons wrote:Did you ever consider the fact that, because the Bible and the Torah are so old, and have been translated several times, and that those times were different, that when either of them mentions a day or a year, that could have very easily meant something totally different than what it means today. For example, one year in the Bible could have been equivalent to an amount of time that we would consider three months, or 10 years. So, knowing this, maybe 5500 years in the Torah could be the same as 200,000 years by today's standards.


No, but I've heard other silly people, like yourself, come up with that excuse. Even back then, they knew what a year was. It's the time between two harvests, or two winters, or two summers. Seasons don't change that much. The Torah claims Abraham lived for 175 years, so either that's an exaggerated claim, or their idea of a year was much shorter than ours. So again... that doesn't explain the 200,000 year gap in time frames.

Go learn what logic is, and what facts are, before you try to debate someone.
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Postby Teddy Coalition » Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:30 am

Why? wrote:No, but I've heard other silly people, like yourself, come up with that excuse. Even back then, they knew what a year was. It's the time between two harvests, or two winters, or two summers. Seasons don't change that much. The Torah claims Abraham lived for 175 years, so either that's an exaggerated claim, or their idea of a year was much shorter than ours. So again... that doesn't explain the 200,000 year gap in time frames.

Go learn what logic is, and what facts are, before you try to debate someone.


He was simply speculating on something he doesnt understand, or has the resources to prove otherwise. Give him a break, and take all your flamatory post and direct them at me.
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Postby NeoThermic » Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:15 am

The Daemons wrote:Did you ever consider the fact that, because the Bible and the Torah are so old, and have been translated several times, and that those times were different, that when either of them mentions a day or a year, that could have very easily meant something totally different than what it means today.


I love how religious people play this card, but when others say something like "The bible has been heavily edited and thus isn't the word of God anymore", religious people denounce their claims. For example, the Gospel of Mark in the Codex Sinaiticus does not contain anything about the resurrection of Christ. It also makes me wonder why the books of Ecclesiasticus, Esther, Judith, Tobit are missing, passages from minor prophets Hosea, Malachi, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, Lamentations are also missing and least we forget where the heck did the Epistle of Jeremiah go?

In short, my opinion is simple. If God intended the Bible to be the one true word, you'd think he'd use his power to make sure anyone copying the holy book would do it perfectly....

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Postby DinoSteve » Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:27 am

Teddy Coalition wrote:As to Murder and rape, prove it. Where in the bible God tells you to do that?


To name a few NSFW examples

Rape:
  • Numbers 31
  • Deuteronomy 22:28-29
  • Deuteronomy 21:10-14
  • Exodus 21:7-11
  • "Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city." (Zechariah 14:1-2)

Murder:

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