My life is a practical joke.

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NeoThermic
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Re: My life is a practical joke.

Postby NeoThermic » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:22 am

Feud wrote:As I already explained, a central tenet of my religion is the belief that marriage in the Temple is a crucial part of God's plan for our happiness, and a requirement in order to receive certain blessings.


Of which you can cite such a reference to your scripture? I.e is the limitation you've prevented created directly from the scripture you read, or is it a social limit?



Feud wrote:If we were to get married it could not be in the manner of my beliefs, and I would therefore be abandoning a core religious value of mine. There is no third option, I can either follow my religious beliefs, or not (either by leaving it completely or just tossing out the parts that I now find inconvenient).


It's what all the "in" religions do! ;)

Fair enough that you feel that it's a core item to which you can't budge. Being said, this appears to be a baby/bathwater situation. What you've explained still strikes me as strange; it'd be as if I were to post that I declined to go out with a girl because she was a Christian due to the fact that I'm an Atheist (of the Nontheism sense, if you wish to get picky).


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Re: My life is a practical joke.

Postby Feud » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:29 am

NeoThermic wrote:Of which you can cite such a reference to your scripture? I.e is the limitation you've prevented created directly from the scripture you read, or is it a social limit?


It's an actual in print part, with the primary scripture portion falling in Sections 130 and 132 (mainly in verses 15-20) of our Doctrine and Covenants, and hundreds of additional sources if we go into things like General Addresses and teaching manuals.
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Re: My life is a practical joke.

Postby NeoThermic » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:51 am

Feud wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:Of which you can cite such a reference to your scripture? I.e is the limitation you've prevented created directly from the scripture you read, or is it a social limit?


It's an actual in print part, with the primary scripture portion falling in Sections 130 and 132 (mainly in verses 15-20) of our Doctrine and Covenants, and hundreds of additional sources if we go into things like General Addresses and teaching manuals.


For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting acovenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye bdamned; for no one can creject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.


Ignoring the oh-so-funny innuendo, I find it scary that the religion you follow has roots that are only a few hundred years old. Thus at this point I would not call it a religion so much as "a group of people following a unified way to live". So, in essence, your limitation is one not of faith, but of social. You have faith that the community is making the right rules to which you live by.

The very rules to which you are passing by someone who is perfect for you.

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Re: My life is a practical joke.

Postby Feud » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:56 am

NeoThermic wrote:Ignoring the oh-so-funny innuendo, I find it scary that the religion you follow has roots that are only a few hundred years old. Thus at this point I would not call it a religion so much as "a group of people following a unified way to live". So, in essence, your limitation is one not of faith, but of social. You have faith that the community is making the right rules to which you live by.


So at what point then does a religion pass the age test? What is the difference between a religion and "a group of people following a unified way to live"? How do you justify the assertion that I am basing my views on social pressures and not faith?

As a side note, the more accurate term would be denomination, as we are a subset of Christianity. I admit though that I often use the terms interchangeably.
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Re: My life is a practical joke.

Postby NeoThermic » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:18 am

Feud wrote:So at what point then does a religion pass the age test? What is the difference between a religion and "a group of people following a unified way to live"?


My gripe is more at your 'religion', don't try turn my arguments into a strawman. LDS is based upon the Christian faith, of which the latter doesn't contain these extra restrictions that the former piles upon it.


I'm going to depart this conversation now. I feel sorry not for you, but for the woman that you are passing up for the only reason of her faith. Take your religious segregation elsewhere IMO.

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Postby TheRileyDuo » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:47 am

Religion and the Internet mix like oil and water.
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Postby Shwart!! » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:47 am

I can easily see the two sides of your dilemma, Feud. What I can say is this:
Your peers (your church) are ill suited to advise you; there is natural bias, from a number of sources.
But, since you're very religious, the words of an atheist are also effectively nullified by the factor of bias.
Thus, your best course is simply to pray. I'm not sure how Mormons pray, but I mean simply to get on your knees (literally or figuratively) and pour out your thoughts and emotions to God.
And then wait.

I don't mean to imply that you've not prayed about it, but likely you've not prayed a simple, pure, honest prayer, without the wrappers of tradition and religion. From my standpoint, your only real answers will come from a truly unbiased source, which in the context, the only one would be God.
Personally, I feel a proper God would permit you and her to marry, but that's just my opinion.

Note that I am technically atheist, in the sense that I feel there's a god, but I really don't care for human interpretations thereof.


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Postby KingAl » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:48 am

Ace Rimmer wrote:Just as a side point, I find it rather funny to see people degrading decisions based on "religion" almost as if they are part of a religion dedicated to pointing out the flaws of "religion". :P


Ace, any decision a person makes based on beliefs that someone else sees to be unjustified is likely to result in those beliefs being criticised. I'm reminded of WMDs, for example... But, you can go on seeing things as 'ironic' if you really like ;)

Ace Rimmer wrote:The narrow path the Bible talks about is a very large counter-force to those that haven't proven it to themselves. :wink:


Uh, that's really just blind assertion. If someone genuinely believes in God, as influenced by their parents' beliefs, are they really likely to drop their belief because what He wants is 'too hard'? "Gee, sorry mom, the whole not-sinning thing was getting a bit much..." :P Sounds like the atheist equivalent of Pascal's Wager; I don't think belief works that way.

But as I've said before, I honestly think that Feud made the best decision, not that either option was ideal. People are treating it as if the question is whether or not to be religious, which is really not the issue. Even if he could just 'decide' one day not to be religious, that'd put strain on family relationships. There isn't a magical solution to the dilemma.

TheRileyDuo: That'd mean we wouldn't be seeing any religion on here! I'd say they mix like fire and gasoline :P
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Re: My life is a practical joke.

Postby Mas Tnega » Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:58 am

NeoThermic wrote:I'm going to depart this conversation now.
You're several aimless attacks overdue for that.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:21 am

KingAl wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:The narrow path the Bible talks about is a very large counter-force to those that haven't proven it to themselves. :wink:


Uh, that's really just blind assertion. If someone genuinely believes in God, as influenced by their parents' beliefs, are they really likely to drop their belief because what He wants is 'too hard'? "Gee, sorry mom, the whole not-sinning thing was getting a bit much..." :P Sounds like the atheist equivalent of Pascal's Wager; I don't think belief works that way.

I was thinking in terms more specific than "not-sinning". :wink: I think I haven't been clear, so let me clarify; there is a difference between somebody that believes in (a) God and basis that believe on a bunch of words they've never even read (or read very little of) and somebody that actively believes in what is written.

In simpler terms, saying to your spouse "I love you" doesn't carry any real meaning if your actions don't show it, especially if you don't even try to get to know that spouse and what their needs are. The same is true for Christians, saying "I believe in you" is meaningless without the active part. Those that fall under the blindly_following_mom/dad category are just mouthing the words. :wink:

I was also taking a quick (in good fun) jab at some. :P
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Postby TheRileyDuo » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:52 am

KingAl wrote: TheRileyDuo: That'd mean we wouldn't be seeing any religion on here! I'd say they mix like fire and gasoline :P


My definition of social mixing is that both components can be together without upsetting one another. That rarely seems to happen with public discourse about religion on the internet. The only reason feelings haven't been hurt, and the knives haven't really come out yet is because this is one of the most self-policing forums I've ever seen.
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Postby Feud » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:56 am

TheRileyDuo wrote:The only reason feelings haven't been hurt, and the knives haven't really come out yet is because this is one of the most self-policing forums I've ever seen.


That, and also the fact that while I can have a quick temper, it takes an awful lot to really hurt my feelings.
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Postby KingAl » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:00 am

TheRileyDuo, I know what you meant, it's hardly a rare idiom -- I was merely interpreting it literally to comic effect :P

Ace Rimmer wrote:I was thinking in terms more specific than "not-sinning". :wink: I think I haven't been clear, so let me clarify; there is a difference between somebody that believes in (a) God and basis that believe on a bunch of words they've never even read (or read very little of) and somebody that actively believes in what is written.

In simpler terms, saying to your spouse "I love you" doesn't carry any real meaning if your actions don't show it, especially if you don't even try to get to know that spouse and what their needs are. The same is true for Christians, saying "I believe in you" is meaningless without the active part. Those that fall under the blindly_following_mom/dad category are just mouthing the words. :wink:


That you have to read and understand the Bible is a belief that can be passed down just as much as any other, and I don't think it's a belief that people are 'less inclined' in inherit. If anything, I'd think it's more convincing to be told that you make your own interpretations, the truth of the Bible taking the place of whatever your parents explicitly tell you in the alternative scenario as the 'central assumption'.
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Postby TomCat39 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:11 am

TheRileyDuo wrote:The only reason feelings haven't been hurt, and the knives haven't really come out yet is because this is one of the most self-policing forums I've ever seen.


I think it also has to do with the level of intelligence of the people residing in the forums. I tend to think higher intellectual beings let other beings the freedom of choice and try as best as they can to share their own beliefs but in a manner that's not dogmatic or forceful to others.

On a side bar, would someone who believes in God, not from religious written word but of just thought, philosophy and science, be considered a religious person or part of a religion?

The reason I ask is I have a belief of God and the only old religion that comes close from what I've heard is budhism, purely hearsay though. Boiled down, all life (plants, and universe included) is God and Consciousness and Conscious Thought is God's power. I don't really know of any religion that fits that concept of God. So would this person be "religious" with those beliefs and practicing as such?
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Postby KingAl » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:13 am

Why give a new label to things that already have them? :P But, yes, I'd call that religious. I'd generally call any belief in the supernatural 'religious'. Except perhaps belief in the trivial supernatural, like leprechauns etc. :)
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