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Mas Tnega
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Postby Mas Tnega » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:44 am

Then it's not really the gun law at fault.
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Postby Rkiver » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:50 am

Partially. If Americans did not have ready access to so many guns it would be less likely to occur, sure they may find other ways to go postal on each other, but I think without such easy access it would not be as bad.
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Postby Feud » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:01 pm

The situation in Illinois is both tragic and upsetting. My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.
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Postby xander » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:07 pm

Feud wrote:The situation in Illinois is both tragic and upsetting. My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.

It is all well and good that your "thoughts and prayers" are with them, but that doesn't do them, or anyone else, a damn bit of good. Better gun control might have helped. A better mental health system may have helped (we have Reagan to thank for the dismantling of the mental health care system in the 80s). Thoughts and prayers do jack sh*t.

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Postby Ace Rimmer » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:28 pm

xander wrote:
Feud wrote:The situation in Illinois is both tragic and upsetting. My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.

It is all well and good that your "thoughts and prayers" are with them, but that doesn't do them, or anyone else, a damn bit of good. Better gun control might have helped. A better mental health system may have helped (we have Reagan to thank for the dismantling of the mental health care system in the 80s). Thoughts and prayers do jack sh*t.

xander

Heh, perfect gun control (both in legislation and in enforcement) along with a perfect mental health system might make a difference, but both are incapable of solving the problem. Please don't take that as anti-gun control/anti-mental health.

Also, I'm rather surprised at this statement...
Rkiver wrote:My comment Feud was merely saying that spending money on a device meant to cause harm and/or kill (I have yet to see a gun plough a field or cook a meal) rather then perhaps donating your tax rebate to a good cause does seem somewhat in contradiction of your beliefs. You already have a gun if required for self defense, so getting another one (redundancy perhaps) is somewhat wasteful, and the money could be donated to those in need.

Partially because of the whole notion of "do what's right in your own eyes because there's not a concrete right/wrong anyway" a lot on this forum are proponents of. Feud may have listed one of the reasons for owning guns as protection, but another was recreation. Therefore it's not redundant. Strictly talking recreation, I have more than one game on the PC, and more than one type of gaming media PC/PSP. Anyway, I digress. Why is it "bad" for somebody that is "religious" to own a gun rather than "donating to a good cause"? Isn't his own personal happiness as good a cause as any? Lastly, who determines that a buying another gun is "worse" than donating money? It's not against the law and it's not a "sin" to own a gun.
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Postby Feud » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:40 pm

xander wrote:It is all well and good that your "thoughts and prayers" are with them, but that doesn't do them, or anyone else, a damn bit of good. Better gun control might have helped. A better mental health system may have helped (we have Reagan to thank for the dismantling of the mental health care system in the 80s). Thoughts and prayers do jack sh*t.


And what would you like me to do instead xander? I don't live in that state so my voting hasn't affected their gun laws (states can set their own, more stringent gun laws so national voting doesn't apply), and Reagan left office when I was four so I wasn't a major player in his domestic decisions.

So, since I live a thousand miles away in a state that has thus far been free from such tragic violence I don't know exactly what you expect from me. The way I see it I can do as I'm doing in the hope that there is a God who will give comfort in strength to them, or I can be like you and assume there is no one up there while getting pissy and insulting at anyone who chooses to live their lives differently.
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Postby Rkiver » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:27 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:Also, I'm rather surprised at this statement...
Rkiver wrote:My comment Feud was merely saying that spending money on a device meant to cause harm and/or kill (I have yet to see a gun plough a field or cook a meal) rather then perhaps donating your tax rebate to a good cause does seem somewhat in contradiction of your beliefs. You already have a gun if required for self defense, so getting another one (redundancy perhaps) is somewhat wasteful, and the money could be donated to those in need.

Partially because of the whole notion of "do what's right in your own eyes because there's not a concrete right/wrong anyway" a lot on this forum are proponents of. Feud may have listed one of the reasons for owning guns as protection, but another was recreation. Therefore it's not redundant. Strictly talking recreation, I have more than one game on the PC, and more than one type of gaming media PC/PSP. Anyway, I digress. Why is it "bad" for somebody that is "religious" to own a gun rather than "donating to a good cause"? Isn't his own personal happiness as good a cause as any? Lastly, who determines that a buying another gun is "worse" than donating money? It's not against the law and it's not a "sin" to own a gun.


In short why is it bad to own a gun? One word answer, America. Guns help no one, donating to a worthy cause may help someone. That's what I was getting at. And comparing guns to computer games...for shame.
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Postby BrianBlessed » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:34 pm

Well to put it bluntly, it doesn't matter whether willing god to comfort people is bollocks or not (although the fact that the most relgiously fervent countries are also the most struck by violence would give some hints) because even if he does exist, I would doubt he'd be chuffed that you just sat back and hoped things turned out nice again. I presume you sit back and hope your government does the right thing, as a construct which is real and has an actual influence, and imagine this is the right thing to do rather than actually attempting to physically shape, change or even comment on government policy in any form.

The thing is if you are just going to sit back and hope things turn out well, at least admit it's because you can't be bothered to do anything else.
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Postby Rkiver » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:35 pm

Ah come on, that's a bit harsh now. It's not Feud's fault that some of his countrymen are a bit nuts and have easy access to weapons.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:10 pm

Rkiver wrote:Ah come on, that's a bit harsh now. It's not Feud's fault that some of his countrymen are a bit nuts and have easy access to weapons.


Well actually it may be (at least the easy access part). Many who share Feud's views have opposed control of handguns and other non-sporting guns. The vast majority of these tragedies are committed with weapons that are not made for sport. If these weapons were better controlled such incidents would likely be much less deadly.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:23 pm

Rkiver wrote:Ah come on, that's a bit harsh now. It's not Feud's fault that some of his countrymen are a bit nuts and have easy access to weapons.

Something about a pot and a kettle and the color black comes to mind. :P

Edit: And just to point something out. Religion is not a precursor to violence, false religion is. :wink:
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Postby xander » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:35 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:
Rkiver wrote:Ah come on, that's a bit harsh now. It's not Feud's fault that some of his countrymen are a bit nuts and have easy access to weapons.

Something about a pot and a kettle and the color black comes to mind. :P

Edit: And just to point something out. Religion is not a precursor to violence, false religion is. :wink:

And, pray tell, how do you tell the difference between false religion and real religion? Also, you do realize that simply labeling something as false religion doesn't actually do anything to solve the problem, right?

Feud: You ask what I would have you do. For starters, vote for candidates in your own elections who support gun control and increased federal and state funding of mental health institutions. If your representatives don't support better gun control, write to them, expressing a desire for such control. Of course, I take it that you don't believe in gun control, which means that you really don't want to do anything to prevent this kind of incident. it seems that you would rather mouth platitudes in the direction of a magical sky-daddy who has shown no interest or intention of interfering with normal human affairs.

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Postby Rkiver » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:46 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:
Rkiver wrote:Ah come on, that's a bit harsh now. It's not Feud's fault that some of his countrymen are a bit nuts and have easy access to weapons.

Something about a pot and a kettle and the color black comes to mind. :P

Edit: And just to point something out. Religion is not a precursor to violence, false religion is. :wink:


Religion can be a precurser to violence. I point out most violence at the moment is carried out by one particular religious group (well a minority part of it) who believe very strongly in their religion.

Also while better gun control would be a start, since Feud has not been able to vote in any legislation as of yet it's not his fault. When he does vote, and if he votes against gun control, then yes I'll lay into him. Till then however tearing him a new one for gun control is not really fair. Tearing him a new one for buying weapons however, eat your heart out.

Also his religion advocates helping fellow man, donating money does so, spending it on weapons does not (though the US sells so much weaponary a year....)

There was a point or two in there somewhere.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:54 pm

Rkiver wrote:Religion can be a precurser to violence. I point out most violence at the moment is carried out by one particular religious group (well a minority part of it) who believe very strongly in their religion.


I don't think that is at all true. Most violence isn't organized to the point religion has much impact. Shootings like this one don't seem to have any religious base for example.

Rkiver wrote:Also while better gun control would be a start, since Feud has not been able to vote in any legislation as of yet it's not his fault. When he does vote, and if he votes against gun control, then yes I'll lay into him. Till then however tearing him a new one for gun control is not really fair. Tearing him a new one for buying weapons however, eat your heart out.


Voting is not the only way to oppose gun control. Buying handguns supports handgun manufacturers for example and membership in anti-gun control groups like the NRA also supports anti-gun control movements.
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Postby Rkiver » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:00 pm

Wasn't talking about the recent shootings being religiously linked, just world violence in general (Darfur, Pakistan, Gaze et all).

Also I could have sworn I heard the NRA were backing betting gun control and backround checks and the like, perchance I was mistaken.

Also yes, buying a rifle for sports is fine. Handguns should be limited to cops. There is no reason I can think of having a handgun in the home.
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