More guns, no guns, gun control? *BANG! BANG!!*

The place to hang out and talk about totally anything general.

What is your stance on gun proliferation?

I own a gun. I DON'T TRUST MY DAMN NEIGHBOUR!!!
2
2%
I own several guns, I'm a hitman .(shhhh don't tell anyone)
3
4%
Change the constitution. Outlaw guns once and for all!
14
16%
GIMME A FLAMETHROWER!
2
2%
Nukes for everyone!
7
8%
I don't own one right now, but I seek to acquire some soon as I'm planning a massacre.
2
2%
I'm a hippie. WADDUA THINK I MEAN?? *punches you in the face*
0
No votes
I don't like guns. When I kill people I use a dildo.
5
6%
mmmmmmmmmmmmy Glock.
1
1%
Strict gun control is the way to go.
18
21%
If everyone had guns, less violence would be the result.
11
13%
I'm in a gun club, I only shoot for pleasure.
2
2%
I'm in a gun club, I train for home defense.
3
4%
I like bananas.
6
7%
OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3
4%
Militias is our only hope.
6
7%
 
Total votes: 85
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Postby Xocrates » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:21 pm

Feud wrote:What's your source on most being legally purchased?

Hmm... It appears I generalized a bit. The article I recalled was specific to mass shootings,of which 3/4 occurred with legally acquired weapons.

For general crime the numbers appear harder to pin down. My search went from 80% being illegal, to most being illegal but being legally bought
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Postby Feud » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:08 pm

I'd be interested in knowing where they got that number. I suspect they are doing a bit of fudging that media often does, reporting as legal sales that were legal for the seller but not buyer. In other words, the seller obeyed the law as far as they were able, but the buyer broke the law while buying but didn't get caught. This means the seller isn't legally liable, and so even though the gun was bought illegally oit gets counted as a "legal" purchase.
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Postby Xocrates » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:30 pm

Feud wrote:In other words, the seller obeyed the law as far as they were able, but the buyer broke the law while buying but didn't get caught.

You do realize that can be considered an argument in favour of stricter gun control, right? ;)
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Postby Feud » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:59 pm

Many gun owners don't mind reasonable gun control. However, when people start talking about licensing or banning, when there exists a failure to enforce laws currently on the books that would focus on those who are more likely to commit crimes, we get unhappy. Enforce the laws that are th ere to prevent guns being sold to criminals and the mentally deranged, then come talk to me about what I should it shouldn't be allowed to own.
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Postby Xocrates » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:07 pm

Oh, I agree, certainly.

But what you said was an example where the Seller obeyed the law: i.e. a situation where the law was being enforced.

If the law is such that you can buy a gun illegally while the law is being enforced, there are worse problems than a lack of enforcement.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:13 pm

Guns pour in at L.A. buyback events
Thousands of people line up to exchange guns for supermarket gift cards at the Los Angeles Memorial Sports Arena and the Van Nuys Masonic Temple.


Los Angeles Times wrote:Many came bearing more than one gun. They pulled 22 pistols from the trunk of one white Honda, a haul that earned the driver $1,000.

Thousands of people with guns and no shots fired. :shock:
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Postby rus|Mike » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:16 pm

Xocrates wrote:
Feud wrote:What's your source on most being legally purchased?

Hmm... It appears I generalized a bit. The article I recalled was specific to mass shootings,of which 3/4 occurred with legally acquired weapons.

For general crime the numbers appear harder to pin down. My search went from 80% being illegal, to most being illegal but being legally bought

Ofcourse mass shootings happen with legal guns, because people who do them do not care if they are going to be caught. What percentage of all gun homicides are mass shootings? 0.00...1%? That's not "generalizing a bit", that's just a false statement.
Xocrates wrote:If you compare the US with countries with similar standards of living but with gun bans, the numbers aren't quite as favourable. Assuming this or this to be correct, the US has murder rates that quadruple most of EU, or countries like Canada or Australia.

You do realize that neither EU nor Canada have "gun bans" in traditional sense, i.e. you can legally own a self-defense gun there if you want to?
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Postby Xocrates » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:25 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:Thousands of people with guns and no shots fired. :shock:

Please do us all a favour and never ever do that kind of thing again. It feels condescending and makes you sound retarded.
You're better than that.

rus|Mike wrote:Ofcourse mass shootings happen with legal guns, because people who do them do not care if they are going to be caught. What percentage of all gun homicides are mass shootings? 0.00...1%? That's not "generalizing a bit", that's just a false statement.

I can't help but notice this conveniently sidesteps the point I was actually trying to make. Not least of which because it ignores the bit where I point out that most illegal guns were apparently legally bought.

rus|Mike wrote:You do realize that neither EU nor Canada have "gun bans" in traditional sense, i.e. you can legally own a self-defense gun there if you want to?

True, but they do have stricter laws and, perhaps more importantly, do not have a society that actively encourages the ownership of guns.
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Postby Feud » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:35 pm

Xocrates wrote:Oh, I agree, certainly.

But what you said was an example where the Seller obeyed the law: i.e. a situation where the law was being enforced.

If the law is such that you can buy a gun illegally while the law is being enforced, there are worse problems than a lack of enforcement.


Actually, no. A seller can obey the law, but if the buyer or other third parties do not or do not properly enforce the law then the law is not being enforced. However, that is generally ignored and reported as a legal sale.

For example, the Tucson shooter broke the law when buying the gun, and enforcement of other precautions that would have prevented the purchase were not carried out. The sale was exactly the kind existing laws meant to prohibit, but those laws were ignored and so the seller had no way to kno w that the buyer was prohibited. Since the seller thus did not break the law in selling to him, having been given a green light by law enforcement, it gets labeled as a "legal" sale, even though it was anything but.

That's what I mean. Many of the "legal" guns you hear about in.crimes actually aren't, but the statistics label them as such anyway sincethe seller might not of broken the law.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:38 pm

Xocrates wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:Thousands of people with guns and no shots fired. :shock:

Please do us all a favour and never ever do that kind of thing again. It feels condescending and makes you sound retarded.
You're better than that.

I intended to put one of these :P at the bottom.

:P
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast...
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Postby Xocrates » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:47 pm

Feud wrote:A seller can obey the law, but if the buyer or other third parties do not or do not properly enforce the law then the law is not being enforced.

Details? I'm not familiar with system to understand how the seller could possibly legally sell an illegal gun directly.
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Postby Feud » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:56 pm

It's kinda like if someone steals a prescription pad . The pharmacist might follow all the laws and protocols, and thus be innocent of wrong doing on their end. But the buyer is not, and if the doctor doesn't do somethings to ensure that their keeping proper safety measures they might not either.

When it comes to gun sales, the media generally looks for one person who didn't break the law. , usually th e seller. If they can find that, the guns are often labeled as "legal", when actually multiple laws may have been broken or ignored in the process.
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Postby rus|Mike » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:16 am

Xocrates wrote:
rus|Mike wrote:You do realize that neither EU nor Canada have "gun bans" in traditional sense, i.e. you can legally own a self-defense gun there if you want to?

True, but they do have stricter laws and, perhaps more importantly, do not have a society that actively encourages the ownership of guns.

You were talking specifically about bans:
Xocrates wrote:If you compare the US with countries with similar standards of living but with gun bans, the numbers aren't quite as favourable

<sigh>
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Postby Xocrates » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:13 am

Feud wrote:It's kinda like if someone steals a prescription pad . The pharmacist might follow all the laws and protocols, and thus be innocent of wrong doing on their end. But the buyer is not, and if the doctor doesn't do somethings to ensure that their keeping proper safety measures they might not either.

I'm still not sure I follow, and more precisely I don't get how that's an issue of enforcement.

Even assuming that the "doctor" follows the safety measures dictated by law, there's the possibility it could still be stolen. Consequently, if one is so worried about the items being acquired illegally, it confuses me that the system skips the rather obvious step of having the "pharmacist" asking the "doctor" directly.

And for that matter, I do know several doctors and I do know of cases of prescription forgery. These are pretty hard to pull of unless the doctor (and often the pharmacist) is willingly involved.

If you have such a system/society, that a fair amount of illegally acquired "legal" guns would be done through these means, then quite frankly you have worse problems than lax enforcement - which, at best, would be a symptom, not the cause.

rus|Mike wrote:You were talking specifically about bans:

I misspoke. And for that I apologize. I didn't correct myself because I felt the point I was actually trying to make would still stand.

However I feel the need to point out that nitpicking and sidestepping the issue won't actual help us discuss the issue. If you believe I got something wrong, by all means feel free to correct me, but don't turn that into your sole argument.
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Postby rus|Mike » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:27 pm

Xocrates wrote:
rus|Mike wrote:You were talking specifically about bans:

I misspoke. And for that I apologize. I didn't correct myself because I felt the point I was actually trying to make would still stand.

However I feel the need to point out that nitpicking and sidestepping the issue won't actual help us discuss the issue. If you believe I got something wrong, by all means feel free to correct me, but don't turn that into your sole argument.

Each time you're pointed to demonstrably false statements of yours, you say "yeah, but the general point stands". How's that contributing to healthy discussion?

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