Religion

The place to hang out and talk about totally anything general.

What is your religion?

Christianity
21
35%
Islam
1
2%
Judaism
0
No votes
Hinduism
0
No votes
Buddhism
2
3%
Chinese
1
2%
Asian Tribal
0
No votes
Other Asian
0
No votes
African Tribal
0
No votes
Spiritism
0
No votes
Philosophical
1
2%
Modern
0
No votes
None
3
5%
Other
2
3%
Agnostic
7
12%
Atheist
22
37%
 
Total votes: 60
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Ace Rimmer
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:49 pm

Well, it's well recognized that holidays such as Christmas have roots in pagan practices that were 'Christianized' over time to draw in people to the church. See Deut. 12:29-32 for specific instructions on how to worship God.
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Postby Mas Tnega » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:03 pm

xyzyxx wrote:
Mas Tnega wrote:It is frequently said that whenever something is beyond our ability to explain, someone imagines a superhuman entity to the task of making it happen.
That person is not an atheist.
Nor did I say it was. This doesn't mean that it isn't observed by one, though.
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Postby wwarnick » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:12 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:Well, it's well recognized that holidays such as Christmas have roots in pagan practices that were 'Christianized' over time to draw in people to the church. See Deut. 12:29-32 for specific instructions on how to worship God.

Oh, I know that. It was created to replace the pagan "Eat, drink, and be merry" holiday. It wasn't a one-day thing either. Hence "12 days of Christmas". That doesn't mean it is still pagan. No matter how it started, I think it's a positive holiday (as long as it doesn't become materialistic, which happens all too often). It's a time to remember the Lord's birth. Is that wrong?

wwarnick
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Ace Rimmer
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:23 pm

wwarnick wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:Well, it's well recognized that holidays such as Christmas have roots in pagan practices that were 'Christianized' over time to draw in people to the church. See Deut. 12:29-32 for specific instructions on how to worship God.

Oh, I know that. It was created to replace the pagan "Eat, drink, and be merry" holiday. It wasn't a one-day thing either. Hence "12 days of Christmas". That doesn't mean it is still pagan. No matter how it started, I think it's a positive holiday (as long as it doesn't become materialistic, which happens all too often). It's a time to remember the Lord's birth. Is that wrong?

wwarnick

It was more than just 'eat, drink, and be merry' holiday. Not to mention that anybody with any sense will tell you that Christ was not born anywhere near Dec 25th and never once said to celebrate his birthday.

I think the passage I mentioned above takes care of it pretty well (especially verse 32)...
NKJ wrote:29 “When the LORD your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, 30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’ 31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.
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Postby jelco » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:30 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:See Deut. 12:29-32 for specific instructions on how to worship God.


Winning quote. :wink:

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Postby wwarnick » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:15 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:It was more than just 'eat, drink, and be merry' holiday.

I know.
Ace Rimmer wrote:Not to mention that anybody with any sense will tell you that Christ was not born anywhere near Dec 25th

I know. It takes place the same time the pagan holiday used to. So what? We don't sing Happy Birthday, so why should it have to be the exact day?
Ace Rimmer wrote:...and never once said to celebrate his birthday.

Neither did he say not to. And he's said countless times to remember him. Isn't dedicating a day to that a good thing?
Ace Rimmer wrote:
NKJ wrote:...take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’ 31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Is that what you think Christmas is? We are not celebrating the pagan holiday. There is nothing "pagan" about modern day Christmas. What it was and what it is are two different things.
Ace Rimmer wrote:
NKJ wrote:32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

Then maybe we shouldn't ride horses because he didn't command us to. The puritans thought the native Americans were devils because they weren't in the Bible. I think you're taking it too far. We are not adding to his commandments and we are not expecting everyone else to celebrate it with us. We are dedicating a season to remembering the Lord's birth, uniting the family, and serving other people. It's sort of a renewal and a reminder of these things. We are not going against that scripture in the least bit.

wwarnick
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:43 pm

wwarnick wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:Not to mention that anybody with any sense will tell you that Christ was not born anywhere near Dec 25th

I know. It takes place the same time the pagan holiday used to. So what? We don't sing Happy Birthday, so why should it have to be the exact day?

The whole "thou shalt not lie" might be a good enough reason... :wink: It's not just a coincidence they're on the same day/at the same time.
wwarnick wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:...and never once said to celebrate his birthday.

Neither did he say not to. And he's said countless times to remember him. Isn't dedicating a day to that a good thing?

Dedicating a day is one thing, putting a "Christian" polish on a pagan practice is another. True, he said countless times to remember Him but He also said how that was to be done.
wwarnick wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:
NKJ wrote:...take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’ 31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Is that what you think Christmas is? We are not celebrating the pagan holiday. There is nothing "pagan" about modern day Christmas. What it was and what it is are two different things.

There's nothing "pagan" about modern day Christmas? Ha! Dress up a pig all you want, it's still a pig. :wink: Even Time Magazine did an article on it once. What it is and what it was may appear to be two different things on the surface, but deep down it's the same thing it's always been. A substitution, a counterfeit... worshiping God in a way totally different from the way He instructed. You can say it's the season of giving and love and all that, and there actually may be people that adhere to being more giving and loving during Christmas. However, the fact remains that Christmas came from pagan worship of other 'gods' and clearly, God stated he did not want to be worshiped as other 'gods' were.
wwarnick wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:
NKJ wrote:32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

Then maybe we shouldn't ride horses because he didn't command us to. The puritans thought the native Americans were devils because they weren't in the Bible. I think you're taking it too far. We are not adding to his commandments and we are not expecting everyone else to celebrate it with us. We are dedicating a season to remembering the Lord's birth, uniting the family, and serving other people. It's sort of a renewal and a reminder of these things. We are not going against that scripture in the least bit.

wwarnick

If you really want to celebrate Christs birth, don't you think He'd at least appreciate a little truth in that celebration? I mean things like the time of year and not telling little children lies about a non-existent fat man running around. :wink:

I don't think I'm taking it too far. I'm not telling you to stop celebrating it. I'm just pointing out that there is a bit more to it than "dedicating a season to remembering the Lord's birth, uniting the family, and serving other people. It's sort of a renewal and a reminder of these things. ".

In short, Christmas is a prime example of "hey, how are they worshiping their false gods? Let's incorporate that into how we worship the true God and get them to join us!" Which is exactly what we're not supposed to do. Just because it didn't happen overnight and people have been doing it for centuries doesn't mean we should ignore it.
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Postby Feud » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:10 pm

With all of this discussion, I think we need to take time to find some common ground. While not all can agree about the history of certain holidays and whether or not it is right to celebrate them, I think that we can all agree to celebrate the one holiday of the year with absolutely no ties to paganism, occult practices, or other such things:

Halloween!


Ace Rimmer wrote:not telling little children lies about a non-existent fat man running around. :wink:


Wait... Santa isn't real? Then where did all those presents come from?
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Postby jelco » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:13 pm

Sorry, that one doesn't exist in my country. :D

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Postby Feud » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:16 pm

jelco the galactaboy wrote:Sorry, that one doesn't exist in my country. :D

Jelco


It could. If you start going door to door tomorrow asking for candy, maybe the holiday will catch on.
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Postby wwarnick » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:33 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:The whole "thou shalt not lie" might be a good enough reason... :wink: It's not just a coincidence they're on the same day/at the same time.

Hmm? Wait, we're lying? We're celebrating the fact that he was born. Not that he was born on the 25th.
Ace Rimmer wrote:Dedicating a day is one thing, putting a "Christian" polish on a pagan practice is another.

It's more than a polish. It has a completely different meaning (depending on how you celebrate it; some people do just what you say).
Ace Rimmer wrote:There's nothing "pagan" about modern day Christmas? Ha! Dress up a pig all you want, it's still a pig. :wink: Even Time Magazine did an article on it once. What it is and what it was may appear to be two different things on the surface, but deep down it's the same thing it's always been.

Deep down? At it's core it is what we celebrate it to be. The TIME article talks about the commercialization of Christmas. I'm talking about Christmas at the home. Who cares how a certain custom was started. All that matters is what it means to us today. The pagan meaning has been replaced by Christian meaning. And the meaning is what makes the difference.

I agree that people today often take Christmas in the wrong direction (less religious), but you don't have to follow the crowd. Christmas is what you make it to be.
Ace Rimmer wrote:A substitution, a counterfeit...

Just because a good thing came from a bad thing doesn't change the fact that it's a good thing. Who cares that it came from a pagan holiday. If you want, you can filter out all the pagan customs and celebrate it your own way. Heck, we have our own version of Christmas. We don't even use stockings (happenstance). We eat smoked oysters and drink sparkling grapejuice on Christmas Eve. No, he didn't command us to eat smoked oysters.
Ace Rimmer wrote:However, the fact remains that Christmas came from pagan worship of other 'gods' and clearly, God stated he did not want to be worshiped as other 'gods' were.

What if other Gods were worshipped the same way we are instructed to worship our god? Would that automatically make it the wrong way to worship? No. It wouldn't. It is not the fact that they are similar. It is that fact that they may worship the wrong way (for example: human sacrifice, which the scripture refers to).
Ace Rimmer wrote:If you really want to celebrate Christs birth, don't you think He'd at least appreciate a little truth in that celebration? I mean things like the time of year and not telling little children lies about a non-existent fat man running around.

Telling kids about Santa Clause is a different debate. About the date, we would be lying if we said that was the day he was born. We aren't. We're not lying. Repeat, we're not lying.
Ace Rimmer wrote:I'm not telling you to stop celebrating it.

You're telling us we shouldn't celebrate it.
Ace Rimmer wrote:In short, Christmas is a prime example of "hey, how are they worshiping their false gods? Let's incorporate that into how we worship the true God and get them to join us!" Which is exactly what we're not supposed to do. Just because it didn't happen overnight and people have been doing it for centuries doesn't mean we should ignore it.

That's how it was, not how it has to be. It sure isn't for us. There aren't any rules to how you celebrate Christmas.

EDIT:
Feud wrote:Halloween!

Oops, Feud. Some people think Halloween is Satanic. For real.

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Postby wwarnick » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:41 pm

Excuse me. Fued pointed something out in my post that was unclear. When I said "it" takes place on the same day as the pagan holiday, I was referring to Christmas, not His Birthday.

EDIT: I'm fully aware that His Birthday is not on or near Christmas and the pagan holiday.

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Postby Ace Rimmer » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:50 pm

wwarnick wrote:Who cares how a certain custom was started

Apparently God does. :wink:

wwarnick wrote:What if other Gods were worshiped the same way we are instructed to worship our god? Would that automatically make it the wrong way to worship? No. It wouldn't. It is not the fact that they are similar. It is that fact that they may worship the wrong way (for example: human sacrifice, which the scripture refers to).

No, it wouldn't make it wrong because as I already said, He gave us instructions on how to worship Him. There's a difference between what I said and what you're saying. We get our instructions from God, not men.
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Postby wwarnick » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:00 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:Apparently God does.

Frankly, I think we're interpreting the scripture differently.

wwranick
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Postby Chimaera » Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:02 am

Romans 14: 5 "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord." (New International Version)

I think this applies nicely. If you want to celebrate Christmas as a Christian, do so for God. If not, do that for God. Don't pass judgement on disputable matters. (Paul's words not mine :P )

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