My New Toy!

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Ace Rimmer
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Thu May 03, 2007 5:34 pm

BrianBlessed wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:
BrianBlessed wrote:Do I find it hard to deal with? - Will the action be hard to carry out or haunt you afterwards

While the rest make perfect sense in the context of no right and wrong, this part doesn't.

If there is truly no right and no inherent wrong, how can something be hard to carry out or haunt you?

I'm sure many people think there is nothing wrong with homosexual acts or various other things, however performing said actions may disturb and/or disgust them. While you may be able to acknowledge that there is no right and wrong. I assume that if you were to draw that concept into someone's personality it would make it somewhat impossible to act, as they have no basis in which to gain a personality as they view everything equally.


Does this not apply in that situation..

BrianBlessed wrote:While you may say that if there is no right or wrong, you should not observe or acknowledge authority or any other system based on rights and wrongs. As there is no right and wrong, what other people think is largely irrelevant and you should just act in a manner to ensure your best interests.


I'm sure in most cases, you're example would not lead to the aforementioned dark alley and bleeding if you acted as such.
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Postby BrianBlessed » Thu May 03, 2007 5:42 pm

What? Can you explain things with more words and less interconnecting quotes with italics please.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Thu May 03, 2007 5:42 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:
Stewsburntmonkey wrote:Except that as innately social animals what other's think often dictates what happens to us. We live in a social setting (most of us anyway) and the effect of our actions on society have to be taken into account. Sure you can go around offending everyone but eventually you will likely find yourself bleeding in some dark alley or in some similar situation.


I think this part covers that..

BrianBlessed wrote:you should just act in a manner to ensure your best interests.


Quite, I just wanted to point out that saying what others think is largely irrelevant is a bit contradictory when you also say that you should do what is in your best interest.
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Postby BrianBlessed » Thu May 03, 2007 5:51 pm

Stewsburntmonkey wrote:Quite, I just wanted to point out that saying what others think is largely irrelevant is a bit contradictory when you also say that you should do what is in your best interest.

You don't need to worry about what they think, just the actions. As I said the statement was in reference to not irrationally opposing social structures for the sake of honour or principle, when it is clearly not in your best interests.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Thu May 03, 2007 5:56 pm

BrianBlessed wrote:
Stewsburntmonkey wrote:Quite, I just wanted to point out that saying what others think is largely irrelevant is a bit contradictory when you also say that you should do what is in your best interest.

You don't need to worry about what they think, just the actions. As I said the statement was in reference to not irrationally opposing social structures for a sake of honour or principle when it is clearly not in your best interests.


But their actions are a product of what they think. If you wait for someone to act it may be too late. You can't really separate action and thought in this case as they are too closely linked. In fact you may not even know about the action that hurts you. For example you may be turned down for a job because someone said something to the boss about something you did that annoyed them. You may never know that is why you didn't get the job.
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Postby BrianBlessed » Thu May 03, 2007 6:04 pm

Stewsburntmonkey wrote:But their actions are a product of what they think. If you wait for someone to act it may be too late. You can't really separate action and thought in this case as they are too closely linked. In fact you may not even know about the action that hurts you. For example you may be turned down for a job because someone said something to the boss about something you did that annoyed them. You may never know that is why you didn't get the job.

I realise that actions are a product of thought, the point was that the views and thoughts of the society you are in should not taint your choices in a manner where you seek to oppose or conflict with them purely for the sake of honour or principle. The point of other people's thoughts being irrelevent was a pre-emptive explanation, mainly because I had the feeling Ace would just ask anyway, of why one would conform with society even if you don't believe their laws and rules are right or true.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Thu May 03, 2007 7:04 pm

BrianBlessed wrote:What? Can you explain things with more words and less interconnecting quotes with italics please.

Why, certainly...

First, you said: "Do I find it hard to deal with? - Will the action be hard to carry out or haunt you afterwards" in regards to how you make decisions and I asked more or less how can something haunt you if the action has no inherent wrongness to it. The only reason I can see that something would haunt you is if you believed your actions in the matter were wrong and would cause guilt. If nothing is inherently wrong, how can it haunt you? If you really believed in no right and no wrong, you would simply ignore the past and move on and thus - no guilt and no haunting.

Secondly, you said (in response to my question about being haunted by the past): "I'm sure many people think there is nothing wrong with homosexual acts or various other things, however performing said actions may disturb and/or disgust them." after saying "As there is no right and wrong, what other people think is largely irrelevant and you should just act in a manner to ensure your best interests."

It appears you are saying it could haunt you if your actions disturbed/disgusted others while at the same time stating what other people think is largely irrelevant.
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Postby BrianBlessed » Thu May 03, 2007 7:27 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:First, you said: "Do I find it hard to deal with? - Will the action be hard to carry out or haunt you afterwards" in regards to how you make decisions and I asked more or less how can something haunt you if the action has no inherent wrongness to it. The only reason I can see that something would haunt you is if you believed your actions in the matter were wrong and would cause guilt. If nothing is inherently wrong, how can it haunt you? If you really believed in no right and no wrong, you would simply ignore the past and move on and thus - no guilt and no haunting.

You can indulge in coprophilia if you want, I would say there is nothing wrong with you doing so, however if I had to do it I would more than likely vomit everywhere and have the experience haunt me. Just because I have certain reactions to something does not mean that I think it is either right or wrong, it's rather childish to not be able to seperate how you feel about something and the actual act itself.

Ace Rimmer wrote:Secondly, you said (in response to my question about being haunted by the past): "I'm sure many people think there is nothing wrong with homosexual acts or various other things, however performing said actions may disturb and/or disgust them." after saying "As there is no right and wrong, what other people think is largely irrelevant and you should just act in a manner to ensure your best interests.".

Well I just used 'many people' instead of continually using myself as an example. In this case people can think there is nothing wrong with various sexual acts, but if they ever had to perform these acts it may disgust/disturb them. So if to win over some female or something they had to indulge in scatplay, it may disgust them and end up as a horrible memory even if they don't think there is anything inherently wrong with it, and as such the end reward may not be worth the nasty memories.

Ace Rimmer wrote:It appears you are saying it could haunt you if your actions disturbed/disgusted others while at the same time stating what other people think is largely irrelevant.

No, i'm not. To ammend the statement for clarity. "I'm sure many people think there is nothing wrong with homosexual acts or various other things, however if they have to perform said actions it may disturb and/or disgust them."
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Postby KingAl » Fri May 04, 2007 5:07 am

Feud wrote: But I find it funny that I've always had the exact same feelings about atheism and agnosticism taht you all seem to harbor towards religion.


"If atheism is a belief system, then not playing chess is a hobby." I don't entirely understand what objections you could have to atheism or agnosticism. No wars have been started over agnosticism, and atheists and agnostics aren't necessarily egocentric - they can be just as altruistic as any other person. I don't regard the 'average' religious person negatively, but rather people who ignore the positive aspects of religion and focus on the dogmatic superstitions - those who use their religion to justify poor judgement and prejudice. The absence of belief in something cannot be similarly misused, though as with all groupings in society it can be used as a basis to discriminate against those who are not part of the group.

Stews: As you have yourself pointed out, the problem with ethical egoism is that it is impossible to prove either way. For any example given, an explanation can be provided for why it is inherently selfish, and many such examples are 'chicken or the egg' situations - i.e. just because someone feels happy having done something helpful unannounced, doesn't necessarily mean that they did it in order to feel happy.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Fri May 04, 2007 5:27 am

KingAl wrote:"If atheism is a belief system, then not playing chess is a hobby." I don't entirely understand what objections you could have to atheism or agnosticism. No wars have been started over agnosticism, and atheists and agnostics aren't necessarily egocentric - they can be just as altruistic as any other person.


The socialistic/communists states have no problem killing in the name of atheism/agnosticism. . .

Atheism is the belief that there is no god. It's just as much of a belief as theism.


KingAl wrote:Stews: As you have yourself pointed out, the problem with ethical egoism is that it is impossible to prove either way. For any example given, an explanation can be provided for why it is inherently selfish, and many such examples are 'chicken or the egg' situations - i.e. just because someone feels happy having done something helpful unannounced, doesn't necessarily mean that they did it in order to feel happy.


I base my view of this on my experience. I've been involved in a lot of community service and this is just my impression of those I have worked with. It is also my experience in life in general. It's a point that has long been debated in philosophy and have nothing new to add to that debate.
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Postby KingAl » Fri May 04, 2007 5:50 am

Stewsburntmonkey wrote:
KingAl wrote:"If atheism is a belief system, then not playing chess is a hobby." I don't entirely understand what objections you could have to atheism or agnosticism. No wars have been started over agnosticism, and atheists and agnostics aren't necessarily egocentric - they can be just as altruistic as any other person.


The socialistic/communists states have no problem killing in the name of atheism/agnosticism. . .


There are, however, no specific prejudices linked with atheism e.g. anti-gay, nor is there an atheist doctrine that extols the persecution of non-atheists. Atheism cannot be used to justify an otherwise unjustifiable prejudice. Persecution via atheism is simply on the basis of persecuting non-atheists - which is possible based on any feature or difference between people.

Atheism is the belief that there is no god. It's just as much of a belief as theism.

Most people who approach atheism on the basis of logic would be termed agnostic atheists, in the sense that they do not deny the possibility of a God or higher power, they just find it highly unlikely from the evidence available. I would argue that atheism based on nothing - i.e. simply making a decision not to believe in a god - is certainly a belief system because something is taken as a given, but agnostic atheism in contrast is based in the refusal to believe anything without good reason to. They shouldn't be defined by their reservations any more than you should be defined based on, say, your skepticism regarding the aerodynamics of pigs. Also, as above, atheists and agnostics do not have a set of superstitions, values etc. that go hand in hand with the label.
In essence, I assert that something is a 'belief' in the religious sense if there is a central assumption without a logical basis.
Last edited by KingAl on Sat May 05, 2007 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Trident » Fri May 04, 2007 7:58 am

Back to the main topic... here is my toy or was.
Image
i dont have a digital camera so i had to steal the pic from a recruitment CD. It is the C-7 assault rifle. A adaptation of the M16 specifically modified for the Canadian military. My personal weapon didn't have the underslung grenade launcher thought thats mainly for infantry units.

as for my thoughts on atheism... I like to Live and let live, i'm usually pretty quiet on the subject, but i just lose my mind when these so called christian scientific creationists start denying things like evolution and the age of the universe when the evidence is so obvious.

Here's what i mean... please watch these videos and give your thoughts...
Evolution_vs_Creation_series
Atheist_Nightmare

These sorts of attitudes just drives me nutts!! The first is really nasty, i didn't even have enough room to comment on how many ways it's wrong. The second is just silly but not ment to be.
Here is some rebuttles which they fail to mention...
Reply_Atheist_Nightmare
Richard_Dawkins_Blind_Watchmaker
I do not consider myself an atheist. I am too open minded to just flat out deny anything, but i don't believe the bible is to be taken %100 literally. I also don't feel a need to join a club to prove i have faith in something. Thats what a religion is isn't it? "I have faith" "oh yeah, me too" "ok, cool, lets join a church club!" not even Jesus did that.
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Postby shinygerbil » Fri May 04, 2007 1:01 pm

Trident, I utterly agree. I actually spent an "instructive" evening getting incredibly angry at those very videos. I saw one where a roomful of kids where made to sing songs about Creationism, when they were clearly too young to even know what they were talking about. In fact:

The Evangelical War On Science

I recommend that everyone watches it. Personally, I find it makes sickening viewing. "You know what those books and DVDs are out there, they're Christian Patriot missiles...powerful weapons in this spiritual war." It really boils my blood.
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Postby KingAl » Fri May 04, 2007 1:31 pm

Ah well. Their loss, eh?
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Fri May 04, 2007 2:36 pm

Trident wrote:I do not consider myself an atheist. I am too open minded to just flat out deny anything, but i don't believe the bible is to be taken %100 literally. I also don't feel a need to join a club to prove i have faith in something. Thats what a religion is isn't it? "I have faith" "oh yeah, me too" "ok, cool, lets join a church club!" not even Jesus did that.

No, that's "churchianity". (in the context of Christianity).
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast...

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