More fun, three, er now four (Thanks Xocrates!) at a time! sorta...
xander wrote:Ace Rimmer wrote:Fair enough. How about the Ten Commandments issue with the courthouse in OK.
Two comments:
1) If the "In God we trust" on our currency, or the "One nation, under God" bit in the Pledge of Allegiance are superficial and, thus, trivial, how are the 10 Commandments being posted in a courthouse any different? And, if they are trivial, why should it matter if they are removed.
In God we trust and One nation under God are superficial because they are both false and a misrepresentation of this nations real beliefs and ideals. As a nation, we don't trust in God and are certainly not under one God. You only need too look at the nations behavior to see its real beliefs. Materialism and consumerism are far more important than any religion.
The Ten Commandments come directly from the Bible. Even if you don't believe in the Bible, but respect it as a religious document, then you can surely see the difference. The Ten commandments
should be the core of Christians. "In God we trust" and "One nation, under God" are statements made in the political arena as you have already stated.
xander wrote:2) Posting the 10 Commandments is a clear endorsement of the Judeo-Christian religion. It favors believers of the Bible over other faiths, and is, therefore, a violation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution.
Perhaps true of the 10 Commandments, but I could argue that "In God we trust" could be defined as "In money we trust" in todays society.
xander wrote:It would make me, as an atheist, question the impartiality of a judge presiding over a case in which I was involved. Flip it around for a minute: let us say that you were arrested. You walk into the courthouse, and notice that the Sharia laws are posted in the lobby. How would you feel about your chances, as a Christian, of getting a fair trial? Would it be appropriate to post the Sharia laws in a courthouse, or would that violate the establishment clause?
First, I don't think my chances of getting a fair trial are any greater just because the judge has part of the Bible posted. Second, not being a member of any denomination, if the courthouse had Sharia laws posted I would do as I would do under any other circumstance... use established US Law and precedent to defend myself (supposing I'm innocent).
I would have to read the establishment clause to answer that specifically.
xander wrote:In summary, I don't see how removing the 10 Commandments from a courthouse is any indication that the state is separating itself from churches.
xander
I stated there is a
push to do so, not that the state as a whole is actually separating itself from religion.
BrianBlessed wrote:I don't see your point. European countries used to have very religious government. New member states to the EU wanted the inclusion of religious values and were denied. What's your point? And technically that wouldn't even be separation of church and state, as it's the European Union not a national government.
But as I understand it (forgive me if I'm wrong here) the European Union, once firmly established as a governing body, will take precedence over any member states laws and governments.
Xocrates wrote:Ace Rimmer wrote:I have to ask why you think that Jesus would be placed on the "left"?
On most definitions of the political term "left" is usually more concerned with the people while "right" is more concerned in (at a lack of better terms) making money. That clearly makes Jesus a lot more "left" than "right"
I suppose if you look at it in those terms maybe. I contend that He would be in neither corner.
Xocrates wrote:Ace Rimmer wrote:While this may be the case now, 200 years ago when the US was being created it certainly was not. In order to not be vague here, I cite the Civil Constitution of the Clergy as one example of Europe's fondness for religion and state to be one. If you need more, just take a look at any of the Holy Roman Emperors.
Current events you ask... One Two Three.
If you're going to cite the Holy Roman emperors, you can pretty much also cite every king/emperor/whatever since the stone age. Keep in mind that the US is a relatively new country. It was founded pretty much about the time separation from state and church took place.
As for the links, there is a tiny difference. There are appeals from the church so that religion is not removed from the European constitution, and there is pressure from the people to do just that. That's because a lot of people are religious: the state can't forbid then that. This means that if they agree, they will be doing the will of the people, not the church.
Also, from that article on the civil constitution of the clergy, it seems that its purpose was to place the church under the state. Agreed, it does not shows separation of church and state, but it is a big reversal of the usual order.
The US being a relatively new nation doesn't discount the history of Europe. Europe's governments have had and do have significant ties to religion and I would venture to say those ties will only become increasingly stronger if terrorism and the US's handling of world affairs continues along the path both are currently on. Stronger to the point of becoming directly involved in governmental affairs.
Stewsburntmonkey wrote:Ace Rimmer wrote:Fair enough. How about the Ten Commandments issue with the courthouse in OK.
Do you mean the situation where a private group put a big granite slab of the Ten Commandment on the courthouse grounds?
If so that seems like a fairly clear cut case. There is not reason for that monument to be on the grounds of the courthouse. It was placed there for purely religious reasons.
I don't remember the specifics anymore so I'll let this article answer that..
Article Stewsburntmonkey wrote:Ace Rimmer wrote:Also fair enough. Left in the context of this conversation would be people like Ted Kennedy or Hilary Clinton. You could also place most of the mainstream American media in the category.
Is it possible for you to not be vague? You seem to be doing all you can to avoid anything specific. Ted Kennedy and Hilary Clinton don't agree on everything and the mainstream American media doesn't have any one position. Cite some specific beliefs and not nebulous entities.
Of course nobody agrees totally with anybody else, but those two are certainly in the same boat when you're talking overall political ideology. Mainstream American media tends to lean one way or the other, the "established" media obviously leans more to the left (CNN, the 3 big networks, etc) while the "new" media leans the opposite (Fox News for example). I was speaking of the "established" media.
Specific beliefs:
Ted and
Hillary I'll let the speak for themselves. You can look at their voting record as well to get a better idea.