Do You Know David Beckham? (Don't cheat...)

The place to hang out and talk about totally anything general.

Who Is David Beckham?

David who?
3
7%
Lead Singer for the Manic Street Preachers
1
2%
Actor On Law & Order
0
No votes
Soccer Player
29
66%
Assistant to Canadian Prime Minister
2
5%
I Don't Care
9
20%
 
Total votes: 44
Stewsburntmonkey
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:19 am

xander wrote:
Stewsburntmonkey wrote:That's true to some degree, but with most languages the pronunciation is tied closely to the spelling.

The reason for that, largely, comes from the fact that the alphabet used by European languages is the Roman one. Roman, or Latin, pronounciation tends to follow the phonetics of the alphabet, because the alphabet was created for that language. The further you get from the original Latin, the stranger spelling has a tendency to get. To some extent, this has been mediated by shifts in spelling through time, and later contact with the alphabet (i.e. German, where it fits fairly well). In the case of English, there is a lot of variation, because the history of the written language is so different from the history of the spoken language.

I would submit this as a general guideline: the longer that a language and alphabet have been linked, the more different pronounciation will be from spelling, and the more pronounciation will vary for a given spelling.


You seem to contradict yourself here. The Romance languages, Latin, Greek, Hebrew and even Chinese have all been linked to their alphabets for centuries and all have fairly consistent pronunciations within their dialects.

The issue with English has less to do with its alphabet and more to do with the way the language developed. English is somewhat unique in that it is largely borrowed from other languages and unlike other languages that tend to evolve mainly from a single language (the Romance languages from Latin for example), English borrows heavily from several languages in different language families (most notably from Romance and Germanic families). This means that the pronunciation of some words follows a more Romance style and some words follow a more Germanic style (and some follow entirely different styles).

English has also been a fairly bottom up language, meaning that changes in the language have tended to percolate up from the commoners up through the social ranks to a much greater extent than in other languages where the language was more formalized from the top (generally due to strong cultural identification), French or Chinese for example.
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Postby xander » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:58 am

Stewsburntmonkey wrote:You seem to contradict yourself here. The Romance languages, Latin, Greek, Hebrew and even Chinese have all been linked to their alphabets for centuries and all have fairly consistent pronunciations within their dialects.

You're right. I didn't phrase that well. There are two variables here. First, there are a lot of languages that use the Roman alphabet, but they use the alphabet differently. To someone who speaks English, those uses will seem strange, and inconsistent (even if they aren't). Thus, for an alphabet that is not independently created, this can change the way in which words are pronounced. This, I think, goes to your point about how the language developed. The spelling is largely Romantic, but the pronunciation is largely Germanic. A Roman alphabet was applied to a Germanic language (then the great vowel shift occurred, further complicating issues).

On the other hand, spelling is very conservative. The language can change in pronunciation, but the written language is slow to reflect that change.

xander
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Postby Star*Dagger » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:27 am

more importantly Victoria Beckham
"The Way of the Warrior is resolute acceptence of death" Musashi
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Postby Trident » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:10 am

HA!! I pratically started this discussion :D
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:46 pm

... and I started this thread as a joke... (never thought it would get this many pages)
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast...
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Postby Trident » Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:50 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:... and I started this thread as a joke... (never thought it would get this many pages)


people just need an excuse to go way off topic to talk about anything and end up debating the most trivial things.

...Is there any chance David would co-star in a Warner Brothers movie with Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd?...
...Fear the mighty Chelsea Deathcats!...
...I don't think it's just the amount of settlements in America...
...Arsenal, Bolton Wanderers, Blackburn Rovers and Tottenham Hotspur!...
...don't even understand the relationship between sound and the written word...
...the inhabitants of said city/government of stated country would be the determinants of true spelling and pronuncation...(k, whaa?)
...This is one of the reasons why spelling bees are almost unique to English...
...On the other hand, spelling is very conservative...
Last edited by Trident on Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:06 pm

Trident wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:... and I started this thread as a joke... (never thought it would get this many pages)


people just need an excuse to go way off topic to talk about anything and end up debating the most trivial things.


Yeah, linguistics is terribly trivial, especially compared to anything as monumentally important as a game. . .
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Postby DueAccident » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:33 pm

That's not entirely true. It very much depends on the sport. If it is football, then yes, you are correct.
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Postby Rkiver » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:43 pm

DueAccident wrote:That's not entirely true. It very much depends on the sport. If it is football, then yes, you are correct.


Sarcasm...Stews was being sarcastic. No damn sport is more important then linguistics in and of itself.

Language allows communication. Sport, especially football, seems to be an excuse for idiots who couldn't last a day in the real working world to get paid a fortune for kicking a ball.
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Postby DueAccident » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:55 pm

Sarcasm...Stews was being sarcastic. No damn sport is more important then linguistics in and of itself.

Language allows communication. Sport, especially football, seems to be an excuse for idiots who couldn't last a day in the real working world to get paid a fortune for kicking a ball.


I know. :wink: I was replying in fashion.
And that's a pretty jaded view you have of sport. Sport is for entertainment, that is all. I admit they are overpayed, but to denounce sport entirely because of the fact is stupid. :roll:
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Postby Star*Dagger » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:50 am

Star*Dagger wrote:more importantly Victoria Beckham


Yeah man, drool city!

S*D
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Postby Montyphy » Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:40 am

Star*Dagger wrote:
Star*Dagger wrote:more importantly Victoria Beckham


Yeah man, drool city!



Are you being serious?
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Postby shinygerbil » Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:58 am

Star*Dagger wrote:
Star*Dagger wrote:more importantly Victoria Beckham


Yeah man, puke city!

S*D


This is what he meant.
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Postby Montyphy » Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:01 am

shinygerbil wrote:
Star*Dagger wrote:
Star*Dagger wrote:more importantly Victoria Beckham


Yeah man, puke city!

S*D


This is what he meant.


That definitely makes more sense
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Postby KingAl » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:20 am

DueAccident wrote:And that's a pretty jaded view you have of sport. Sport is for entertainment, that is all. I admit they are overpayed, but to denounce sport entirely because of the fact is stupid. :roll:


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One skillful enough to play a game, but stupid enough to find it important.

Also, 'Ottawa Senators' more than makes up for any lack of silliness in the names of other teams.

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