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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:53 pm

The Ghost Ninja wrote:For starters both Inteligent Design and evolution require faith.


No, evolution requires no faith (unless you count faith in observed reality). It is a clearly observable phenomenon.


Nobody was around when the earth started. So you have to belive that it was started one way or the other. Now how do we get the dates of stuff we find in the ground, we date it. But the problem there is that the dating system is screwed up. What they do is they check the fossils against the rock formations and say that if it was found so far deep it is older. Then what they do is say that the rock is so old because of the type of fossil in it. It is currcular resoning and doesnt work.


That is simply not true. They do date things based on where they are in the geological layers, but they don't date everything relatively. They use other methods to positively date certain items in a layer. Generally they use several methods for dating objects so that any errors in testing can be found.

Also evolution isn't concerned with how the earth was formed.


Also carbon-14 doesnt last forever so thats out. And even though it does last a while who says that the sample that they test wasnt bombarded with sun rays so that it decayed faster then normal.


Carbon 14 testing (and other radiometric dating methods) are generally very accurate. Scientists however do not depend solely on these tests. They are very careful to use multiple tests and to make sure all the tests give similar dates.

Now i believe in the Bible. If someone can disprove just one fact in that then i guess you have a point, but in fact no-one EVER has disproven anything in the Bible.


Give me a break. The Bible contradicts itself is several instances, so you can't take the Bible as entirely accurate. To do misses the whole point of Christianity (at least as far as I am concerned).


That being said if you can find me a science book that has made prophecys that come true 2000 years later than i think i would believe it wouldn't you?


I can make predictions that will come true in 2000 years (ie "someone will die on this day 2000 years from now") does that mean everything I say should be taken as gospel? I think not.


And in fact thats what the Bible did, it made a bunch of prophecys and they came true.


It helped that the Bible was compiled from lots of different writings after the fact. . . It's not all that hard to compile a book to fit the facts after they happened.

And there are still more that have yet to happen. Why is the Bible so important? Because it says God created the world and everything in it. And if the Bible is true, then guess what, God DID make the world. If you look the the Bible at Genesis 5 it has an account of the men who lived and for how long. If you study that and a few other thing you will find that according to the Bible the earth is only 9,000 years old MAX. So i guess if there is only 9,000 years to evolve there isnt much going on is there.


Except even most Christians believe the time spans given in the Old Testament to be more parable than fact. All evidence points to the earth be a good bit older than 9,000 years.
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Postby dondarm » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:55 pm

Meh this is like always. Just don't give these guys to much credit (as long as they aren't blowing anything up like um... you know, Einstein's grave or something)
and they'll just die out. Heck, why even bother talking with such a guy, you already know what he thinks about a lot of subjects like abortion, homosexuals, penis-shaped clouds(SIN!) etc. etc. A discussion with such a person can't give you any new information or an interesting point of view,SO JUST DON'T LISTEN TO'EM!
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Postby xander » Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:50 pm

dondarm wrote:Meh this is like always. Just don't give these guys to much credit (as long as they aren't blowing anything up like um... you know, Einstein's grave or something)
and they'll just die out. Heck, why even bother talking with such a guy, you already know what he thinks about a lot of subjects like abortion, homosexuals, penis-shaped clouds(SIN!) etc. etc. A discussion with such a person can't give you any new information or an interesting point of view,SO JUST DON'T LISTEN TO'EM!

The problem is that people like this have a great deal of influence in American politics right now, and they could potentially do great harm. For instance, if evolution does not occur, then we don't have to worry about H5N1, right? Evolution is the foundation of modern biology. Without evolution, we have a lot pretty picutures and descriptions of biological functions, but no way to unify them, or understand how they came about, or why they work in the way in which they do. It is like plate tectonics in geology -- without tectonics, mountain building just doesn't make sense.

If evolution is ignored, or shouted out, there is potential for grave harm. It is the responsibility of all educated individuals to prevent such harm. Thus, people like The Ghost Ninja should be educated. If they fail to accept that education (as The Ghost Ninja is attempting to do), they should be constantly told that they are wrong, and why they are wrong, so that other people do not get the impression that, just because they are louder, they are right.

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Postby Montyphy » Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:57 pm

xander wrote:without tectonics, mountain building just doesn't make sense.


You clearly know nothing about the Flying Spaghetti Monster since he is an expert mountain builder. :P
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Postby dondarm » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:01 pm

xander wrote:The problem is that people like this have a great deal of influence in American politics right now, and they could potentially do great harm. For instance, if evolution does not occur, then we don't have to worry about H5N1, right? Evolution is the foundation of modern biology. Without evolution, we have a lot pretty picutures and descriptions of biological functions, but no way to unify them, or understand how they came about, or why they work in the way in which they do. It is like plate tectonics in geology -- without tectonics, mountain building just doesn't make sense.

If evolution is ignored, or shouted out, there is potential for grave harm. It is the responsibility of all educated individuals to prevent such harm. Thus, people like The Ghost Ninja should be educated. If they fail to accept that education (as The Ghost Ninja is attempting to do), they should be constantly told that they are wrong, and why they are wrong, so that other people do not get the impression that, just because they are louder, they are right.

xander


Ok first I'm surprised that you used H5N1 as an example. AIDS is a much more fatal problem and more people in a lot more countries are affected by it.
And if you read your last sentence again you could come to the conclusion, that in order to stop those fundamentalists/creationists, who want to convince others by being louder than you, you'll have to be louder than them. Sounds a bit odd to my ears.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:10 pm

It's not so much a matter of being loud exactly as it is a matter of making sure false arguments/information doesn't go uncontested. A lot of people will accept whatever they are given (in fact we all do this to a degree). People can only make decisions based on what they "know" (here I mean "know" as in what someone believes to be true). If they are only presented with a single fanatical view of the world (say a fundamentalist Christian, Jewish, or Islamic ideology) they will not be able to make sensible decisions in many aspects of life. Thus it is important to make sure misinformation is corrected as much as possible.
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Postby dondarm » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:23 pm

I didn't say correcting that shit he wrote was wrong, but you were discussing with him, thus
a)giving him a stage to present his "arguments"
b)taking him seriously, this might be even worse.
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Postby xander » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:25 pm

dondarm wrote:Ok first I'm surprised that you used H5N1 as an example. AIDS is a much more fatal problem and more people in a lot more countries are affected by it.

I almost said AIDS, but H5N1 is what all the hype is about right now. Also, H5N1 doesn't currently infect humans with much virulency. It would have to evolve in order to be a major threat.

dondarm wrote:And if you read your last sentence again you could come to the conclusion, that in order to stop those fundamentalists/creationists, who want to convince others by being louder than you, you'll have to be louder than them. Sounds a bit odd to my ears.

SBM did a very good job of explaining my views on this matter. I phrased it badly, I suppose.

dondarm wrote:I didn't say correcting that shit he wrote was wrong, but you were discussing with him, thus
a)giving him a stage to present his "arguments"
b)taking him seriously, this might be even worse.

If you don't respond, then that gives their argument an air of legitimacy without contest. That cannot be allowed. If fundamentalists are allowed to spew their drivel uncontested, then people begin to believe them. If you argue with them, then you may give their point of view some legitimacy, but you will also get correct information into the public forum. If you preface an argument with the statement that what they say is utter bullshit, you can also take away much of that legitimacy.

Furthermore, this does need to be taken seriously. We don't have to take their ideas seriously, but we do have to take seriously the threat that their ideas have if they are taught as science.

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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:50 pm

dondarm wrote:I didn't say correcting that shit he wrote was wrong, but you were discussing with him, thus
a)giving him a stage to present his "arguments"
b)taking him seriously, this might be even worse.


There are a lot of urban/internet legends out there that people believe simply because no one every bothered to correct them. It is far more dangerous not to respond than to respond.
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Postby dondarm » Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:15 pm

xander wrote:If you don't respond, then that gives their argument an air of legitimacy without contest. That cannot be allowed. If fundamentalists are allowed to spew their drivel uncontested, then people begin to believe them. If you argue with them, then you may give their point of view some legitimacy, but you will also get correct information into the public forum. If you preface an argument with the statement that what they say is utter bullshit, you can also take away much of that legitimacy

Everybody knows that one big problems of our times and especially the internet is information overflow. People are really having a hard time sorting out the correct(whatever this means) information. But its even harder if someone is using his beliefs as an argument. Theoretically you can't answer with simple facts cause he will always answer with "This is what I believe in." And a lot of people are attracted by such sentences, history has shown this.
xander wrote:Furthermore, this does need to be taken seriously. We don't have to take their ideas seriously, but we do have to take seriously the threat that their ideas have if they are taught as science.


I wasn't talking about taking their ideas seriously, I meant the persons who proclaim them. Coming from the land of lawyers you should know that the best way to discredit an argument is to discredit the person who spoke it out.

Stewsburntmonkey wrote:
dondarm wrote:I didn't say correcting that shit he wrote was wrong, but you were discussing with him, thus
a)giving him a stage to present his "arguments"
b)taking him seriously, this might be even worse

There are a lot of urban/internet legends out there that people believe simply because no one every bothered to correct them. It is far more dangerous not to respond than to respond.

Come on you almost have your answer in that quote of me. I don't mean you aren't allowed to correct or response to them, you simply shoudn't give them to much credit... damn there has to be a different way of treating idiots than just flaming or being really mad about them. Just relax. Try for example not to speak to them in the 2nd person. Or just make fun of his beliefs. Yeah these things only work on some forums and not if you're living in a country where those guys got some influence. But in that case discussing this problem on a forum for a videogame developed by a small british studio won't help you either.
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Postby xander » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:08 am

dondarm wrote:Come on you almost have your answer in that quote of me. I don't mean you aren't allowed to correct or response to them, you simply shoudn't give them to much credit... damn there has to be a different way of treating idiots than just flaming or being really mad about them. Just relax. Try for example not to speak to them in the 2nd person. Or just make fun of his beliefs. Yeah these things only work on some forums and not if you're living in a country where those guys got some influence. But in that case discussing this problem on a forum for a videogame developed by a small british studio won't help you either.

I don't think that anyone has suggested anything other than what you have said. When the topic comes up, flatly tell the person that they are wrong, then explain to them why they are wrong. Continue to show them the evidence until they either (a) shut up or (b) accept that they are wrong. The ID folk have influence because they are loud. The scientific community needs to be heard just as clearly. This requires confronting people, not ignoring them.

Now, in this thread, I have already failed in that. All of the arguments that The Ghost Ninja brought up are very old ones, and they don't hold water. I directed him to resources which could have explained that far better than I could, and he chose not to read them. What do you do with someone who is willfully ignorant?

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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:53 am

dondarm wrote:Come on you almost have your answer in that quote of me. I don't mean you aren't allowed to correct or response to them, you simply shoudn't give them to much credit... damn there has to be a different way of treating idiots than just flaming or being really mad about them. Just relax. Try for example not to speak to them in the 2nd person. Or just make fun of his beliefs. Yeah these things only work on some forums and not if you're living in a country where those guys got some influence. But in that case discussing this problem on a forum for a videogame developed by a small british studio won't help you either.


I don't think anyone here is all that upset by The Ghost Ninja's comments. However nothing is to be gained by not engaging with him. There is nothing to be gained by not using the second person or making fun of his beliefs. These forums have a history of hosting pretty serious discussion. Certainly we are not going to single handedly solve the worlds issues here, but we have had some very interesting and informative debates here.
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Postby The Ghost Ninja » Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:34 am

One to xander you said "Until such time as you can actually be bothered to read through the archives at http://talkorigins.org (such as the links I cited above), I have no interest in debating you." ok that site is a joke. It is not scientists it is just a "usergroup" so dont tell me about "the scientific way"

Two, stewsburntmonkey you said "Give me a break. The Bible contradicts itself is several instances, so you can't take the Bible as entirely accurate. To do misses the whole point of Christianity (at least as far as I am concerned)." If you can show me where the Bible contadicts itself the do tell.
Also the propheys where specific i.e. the price of his betrayal would be thirty pieces of silver. Zechariah 11:12, Matthew 26:15
You also said that most christians belive that the earth is older than 9,000 years old. I dont know who you are talking to but christians dont really belive that. Maybe most "christians" do, but i would see what type of "christian" they are.

Back to xander. I cant belive that you take that site as fact. Also again i couldnt come up with any scientific way to disprove God. If you can show me. Show me a scientific way to prove the that God doesnt exsist. Just show me an example. And you couldnt disprove the Bible either. And i will stand on that. Cause if you cant disprove that then you cant disprove anything i say that comes from it.
Once again not trying to be a jerk just trying to show you a different view.
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Postby Montyphy » Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:01 am

The Ghost Ninja wrote:If you can show me where the Bible contadicts itself the do tell.


The account of Christ's birth.

You also said that most christians belive that the earth is older than 9,000 years old. I dont know who you are talking to but christians dont really belive that. Maybe most "christians" do, but i would see what type of "christian" they are.


They would most likely be the Christians who belong larger denominations. Particularly ones who actually listen to what the Pope (or sometimes Queen) says.

And you couldnt disprove the Bible either.


You also can't disprove the Harry Potter books as being fact so is ok if I totally rewrite history and science based on the information they contain?
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Postby Lastof » Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:07 am

The Ghost Ninja wrote:You also said that most christians belive that the earth is older than 9,000 years old. I dont know who you are talking to but christians dont really belive that. Maybe most "christians" do, but i would see what type of "christian" they are.


So, what happened to the whole not judging people cause that was God's job thing, I thought Christians were supposed not to judge. Because that sounded rather judgmental.

Also again i couldn't come up with any scientific way to disprove God.


What xander is after is for you to tell us what would convince you that god wasn't real. He has stated things that could convince him that evolution wasn't real, but as far as we can tell, you will blindly believe in god no matter what evidence that opposes that is found. If such evidence is just swept under the carpet as a "test of faith" then there is no way to convince you that it isn't true. Hence it is religion, not science, which is xander's reason for not liking Intellectual Design.

Montyphy wrote:You also can't disprove the Harry Potter books as being fact so is ok if I totally rewrite history and science based on the information they contain?


Seriously, not the best argument to use. A very devout Christian friend of mine (I think he's Evangelical Charismatic, which basically is the believe every word, annoy others on the streets stuff). Apparently, someone in the US (would be, wouldn't it) converted to Christianity after formerly being a "witch" and that this former "witch" has filmed a video in which they said that some of the spells in Harry Potter were real witchcraft that she was taught by the devil. Hence (in his eyes) at least partly true. And evil. I believe his church had a ceremonial burning of harry potter books.

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