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Feud
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Postby Feud » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:58 am

shinygerbil wrote:Also; two wrongs don't make a right. There were plenty of Olympic moments to be proud of, and the closing ceremony - as much as it tried - can't cancel them all out.


That's wholly an issue of scale. :wink:

Xarlaxas wrote:I wouldn't say he's entirely considered a joke over here though, actually, he's seen as more dangerous than anything else, financial commentators are saying that Romney will be bad for the world economy in the short, medium, and long-term, which is pretty impressive. . . .


Are they basing that upon what he's saying, or his style of management when he was in office previously?

Also, it would be a hard sell to get elected based upon "good for world markets" unless it can convince people that it will be good for them personally. He's not running for world office. At the end of the day he's got to get elected by a plurality of Americans, and regardless of what is or what he thinks to be the best thing to do is, he can't do that if he doesn't get elected first.

I tend to worry a lot less about what a candidate is saying as whether I think they are capable of doing a good job. There's a million things for a president to do that can't or isn't covered in a campaign, and the future holds untold challenges. I'd rather have a person in office who I trust to handle the unknowns.

That was one of my biggest problems with Obama in the first election, I didn't think he was ready and that personally he had shown himself trust worthy yet. I gave him the benefit of the doubt though when he got elected, and that didn't work out too well. In this election, I trust Romeny more. I think he's a better person, better educated, more experienced, and better capable to handle both the knowns and unknowns of the job. So, unless something major happens, he'll likely get my vote.
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Postby Jordy... » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:33 am

The Mighty Santa wrote:
Jordy... wrote:))<>((

Those of you who knows what that means, give me a shake with the hand!! Great movie!


Heh. :D But the real ones would be |<>|


o_O I don't follow?
Cuz fuck logic
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Postby GreenRock » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:24 am

Jordy... wrote:
The Mighty Santa wrote:
Jordy... wrote:))<>((

Those of you who knows what that means, give me a shake with the hand!! Great movie!


Heh. :D But the real ones would be |<>|


o_O I don't follow?


You are not alone.
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Postby Laika » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:43 pm

Goatse ?
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Postby Xocrates » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:02 pm

Feud wrote:Are they basing that upon what he's saying, or his style of management when he was in office previously?

If those two are contradictory, then he is a lousy candidate.

However, regardless of how competent Romney might be, what assurances does the world have that he won't usher another era of "America, Fuck yeah" like Bush did?
That's what we mean when we say Romney sounds dangerous, he seems poised to do exactly that.
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Postby The Mighty Santa » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:29 pm

GreenRock wrote:
Jordy... wrote:
The Mighty Santa wrote:
Jordy... wrote:))<>((

Those of you who knows what that means, give me a shake with the hand!! Great movie!


Heh. :D But the real ones would be |<>|


o_O I don't follow?


You are not alone.


Heh, I assumed you were talking about Darth Vader's TIE fighter from Star Wars lol...
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Postby Xarlaxas » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:25 pm

Xocrates wrote:
Feud wrote:Are they basing that upon what he's saying, or his style of management when he was in office previously?

If those two are contradictory, then he is a lousy candidate.

However, regardless of how competent Romney might be, what assurances does the world have that he won't usher another era of "America, Fuck yeah" like Bush did?
That's what we mean when we say Romney sounds dangerous, he seems poised to do exactly that.


Well, considering how easily one can show off a whole reel of Romney clips making him look like a giant pair of flip-flops. . . .

Xoc has it pretty much exactly right, the idea of Romney being president is only slightly less scary than the thought of something happening to him and then Paul Ryan becoming president. With his policies it would be kinder for the army to just *shoot* all the poor people rather than wait for them to die of preventable illnesses and malnutrition.
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Postby Feud » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:48 pm

Glad to see it's a well grounded concern. :P

Xocrates wrote:If those two are contradictory, then he is a lousy candidate.

However, regardless of how competent Romney might be, what assurances does the world have that he won't usher another era of "America, Fuck yeah" like Bush did?
That's what we mean when we say Romney sounds dangerous, he seems poised to do exactly that.


First, a contradiction between those two does not a lousy candidate make.

Second, the current President has been just as bad, if not worse, about the Bush problems. I don't see how Bush arresting foreigners suspected of terrorism is worse than Obama deciding to skip the whole arrest and trial thing and just blow them up with a drone strike. I also don't see how Bush's process of going to war, which was to go through the legal process of asking Congress and then asking the UN for good measure, is somehow worse than Obama's of just deciding to go to war without asking at all.

Frankly, I think Bush was a much better President for the international community than Obama is, and exhibited a lot less of the "America, f- yeah" attitude. Everyone seems to want to give Obama a pass on it though, and pretend that it's somehow better to have him in office than Bush.

But hey, you're the ones living outside the US, not I. I personally don't like either the Bush or the Obama foreign policy models, and I don't think Romney has suggested either adopting Obama's policies or using Bush's, so that's good. Romeny isn't a ideologue, and no one has ever accused him of being one, so I don't think there's much reason to think he'll adopt a radical foreign policy.
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Postby Xocrates » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:40 pm

Feud wrote:First, a contradiction between those two does not a lousy candidate make.

Generally, that's true. In this context I would disagree.

Let's assume that the issue was raised due to his style of management previously, that means that not only he already has a history of crappy management, which not only makes him a dubious candidate to begin with, but a contradiction with what he's saying means he would have an unproven management style for politics he didn't try to implement before.

Now let's assume that the issue was raised due to what he's saying, having had a good style of management in the past, then it becomes worrisome since he'll be able to institute policies that are seen as dangerous or worrisome.

So the options are incompetent/unproven or dangerous. Neither looks very good.

Feud wrote:Obama's of just deciding to go to war without asking at all.

I had to do some serious googling to figure out that you're probably talking about Lybia :P

And granted, I'm not fully aware of what's going on US politics, but there is a significant difference between Obama and Bush: Obama build bridges and rarely, if ever, acted against the opinion of the international community (even if he did so without their consent), not to mention he's much closer politically to the other western countries than a Republican ever will. Bush heavily cultivated a "you're either with us or against us" mentality, which is why the US was so hated during the second part of his mandate.

Romney, in the meantime, has insulted allies and neutral parties for ill defined reasons.

So that's where we stand, one side is politically and diplomatically entwined with the international community, the other is not.
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Postby Feud » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:08 pm

Xocrates wrote: (even if he did so without their consent).


That's not the consent I was talking about, I meant the consent of Congress, which is required for going to war. While a President may conduct operations for 90 days without Congressional consent, doing so offensively is a violation of both the spirit of the law, and that he did not seek Congressional consent after 90 days makes it all the more egregious.

And, in regards to the management style: what in Romney's past time in office makes you think that he will carry out a dangerous agenda? He almost didn't get nominated because his time as governor was so liberal, with some thinking he was more liberal in office than Obama has been. Don't get swayed by the puffery, doing so leads to a lot of disappointment with purchases. ;)
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Postby Xocrates » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:24 pm

Feud wrote:That's not the consent I was talking about, I meant the consent of Congress, which is required for going to war.

Ah. Those are not the kind of things that trickle out to the international community.

Feud wrote:And, in regards to the management style: what in Romney's past time in office makes you think that he will carry out a dangerous agenda?

I wasn't talking about Romney in particular, I was pointing out why if a politician is viewed with suspicion AND his previous management style and current views are contradictory, he's a lousy candidate.
Last edited by Xocrates on Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Xarlaxas » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:42 pm

Feud wrote:And, in regards to the management style: what in Romney's past time in office makes you think that he will carry out a dangerous agenda? He almost didn't get nominated because his time as governor was so liberal,


Well, he was the governor of a liberal state and had to adapt accordingly, now that he's the candidate for an alarmingly right-wing fringe party with some moderates attached he has done his darndest to bury any signs of liberalism and be as crazy as they are, the only exception being his views on abortion are slightly less heinous than his VP pick. That is not reassuring.

I knew about the whole consent of congress deal with regard to Libya, but that didn't bother me as I wouldn't have been surprised if the Republicans would have opposed it on the same principle that they opposed health-care for 9/11 First Responders: Obama was for it. With a political environment so toxic because of Republican obstructionism it's more aggravating than anything else that Obama hasn't been acting more like LBJ and FDR and just blasting his opposition with the support of the American people. *sigh*
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Postby Feud » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:33 am

Xarlaxas wrote:Well, he was the governor of a liberal state and had to adapt accordingly, now that he's the candidate for an alarmingly right-wing fringe party with some moderates attached he has done his darndest to bury any signs of liberalism and be as crazy as they are, the only exception being his views on abortion are slightly less heinous than his VP pick. That is not reassuring.

I knew about the whole consent of congress deal with regard to Libya, but that didn't bother me as I wouldn't have been surprised if the Republicans would have opposed it on the same principle that they opposed health-care for 9/11 First Responders: Obama was for it. With a political environment so toxic because of Republican obstructionism it's more aggravating than anything else that Obama hasn't been acting more like LBJ and FDR and just blasting his opposition with the support of the American people. *sigh*


37% of Americans identify themselves as Republicans, as opposed to 33% who consider themselves Democrats. I think that it's hard to claim the Republican party to be a "fringe" party when it's the party that most voters identify with.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... ffiliation

As for 9/11 health care issues, that's silly. Republicans are not against health care for first responder injuries received or resulting from 9/11. That they didn't like that particular bill doesn't mean that they don't support the issue, it means that they didn't like that bill.

As for obstructionism, why is it obstructionism when the Republicans in the House don't support Democrat bills, but you aren't saying the same about the Democratically controlled Senate's constant rejection of House passed bills? I agree, both sides are behaving childish. But, it's unfair to say that one side is the sole cause. Many bills have cleared the House by the Republican majority only to have the Senate democrats reject them on party locked voting.
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Postby Xocrates » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:46 am

Feud wrote:I think that it's hard to claim the Republican party to be a "fringe" party when it's the party that most voters identify with.

I believe Xarlaxas used fringe in the sense of extremist.
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Postby Feud » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:03 am

Xocrates wrote:
Feud wrote:I think that it's hard to claim the Republican party to be a "fringe" party when it's the party that most voters identify with.

I believe Xarlaxas used fringe in the sense of extremist.


How can something be extreme if it constitutes a plurality? By definition, isn't extreme outside the norm?

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