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Jordy...
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Postby Jordy... » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:18 pm

Feud your a Mormon right? I was just wondering what perspective your faith has on the death penalty?
Cuz fuck logic
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Postby Laika » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:43 pm

Last edited by Laika on Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Feud » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:03 pm

Jordy... wrote:Feud your a Mormon right? I was just wondering what perspective your faith has on the death penalty?


Yep, I am.

The Church doesn't have an official policy that I am aware of. That being said, it's practiced in our scriptures (Bible and Book of Mormon), and some leaders have been supportive of it. I would guess that most Mormons in the US are supportive of it, but it's a matter that's left to the individual to work out. I know many who do support it, and many who don't (for various reasons).
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Postby xander » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:04 pm

Let's leave aside your initial poorly worded post and my initial off-the-cuff quips in response. That is basically irrelevant at this point. Let's also leave aside my poorly considered challenge (I am not surprised that there are people in prison that would rather die, considering that there are people not in prison who would rather die---instead, I think that the challenge should be to show that, all other things being equal, a person in prison for life is more likely to want to die than a person not in prison for life, though even that has flaws as a challenge, since (a) I'm not sure that the studies have ever been done and (b) I'm not sure how you could get a proper control group).

The issue is whether or not the state should be in the business of executing people. As I said above, if someone violates the social contract, our actions towards them can serve to (1) deter, (2) punish (exact revenge), (3) segregate (to protect the group), or (4) rehabilitate. Am I missing something here?

Perhaps you do not share this opinion, but I think that the primary goal of a society should be to attempt to rehabilitate those that break the rules while protecting society from the actions of such people. That is, the penal system should serve to segregate and rehabilitate. I have agreed for the sake of argument that there are people who are beyond rehabilitation, hence part of the job of the penal system is to remove these individuals from society in order to protect that society. I claim that it is unnecessary to further punish these people, and once they have been ruled beyond rehabilitation, deterrence is no longer an issue.

Once we have decided that someone is beyond rehabilitation, we have two options: segregate them from society for the rest of their natural life, or kill them. You argue that killing them is the better option because it is an act of mercy. Let us, for a moment, say that I agree with you that prison is so horrible that one should want to die rather live out the remainder of their life in prison. In such a case, I do not think that it is incumbent upon the state the make that decision and mete out executions for that reason. If prison is really so horrible, then give prisoners the choice. If they think death is less cruel, let them take a cyanide pill. Otherwise, continue to segregate them from society.

Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that when you execute someone, you are ending a human life. You are destroying a living, thinking, feeling entity. This is something that cannot be undone. You ask how society is improved by locking someone up for life. If the alternative is killing them? In many ways. A prisoner sentenced to life can be exonerated, or can demonstrate that they are no longer a threat to society and be released. They can contribute to society by producing goods (e.g. in a prison work program---though care needs to be taken that such programs are humane and not exploitative) or art. Perhaps most importantly, society is improved by the mere act of not condoning the execution of its members.

xander
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Postby Jordy... » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:19 pm

hmm
Cuz fuck logic
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Postby Feud » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:25 pm

xander wrote:Perhaps you do not share this opinion, but I think that the primary goal of a society should be to attempt to rehabilitate those that break the rules while protecting society from the actions of such people. That is, the penal system should serve to segregate and rehabilitate. I have agreed for the sake of argument that there are people who are beyond rehabilitation, hence part of the job of the penal system is to remove these individuals from society in order to protect that society. I claim that it is unnecessary to further punish these people, and once they have been ruled beyond rehabilitation, deterrence is no longer an issue.


I disagree that punish and revenge are the same thing, I think punishment can be used to facilitate the other goals (such as a speeding ticket being a punishment, which then serves to be a deterent and also corrective action, rather than a revenge as no one was actually wronged). But, I agree with what you've said there.

xander wrote:Once we have decided that someone is beyond rehabilitation, we have two options: segregate them from society for the rest of their natural life, or kill them. You argue that killing them is the better option because it is an act of mercy. Let us, for a moment, say that I agree with you that prison is so horrible that one should want to die rather live out the remainder of their life in prison. In such a case, I do not think that it is incumbent upon the state the make that decision and mete out executions for that reason. If prison is really so horrible, then give prisoners the choice. If they think death is less cruel, let them take a cyanide pill. Otherwise, continue to segregate them from society.


Again, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of the consequences being left in the hands of the convicted. But, I in that hypothetical situation, I don't think that I would be outraged over such a situation. As for the state's use of force, I accept that the State may use force for self preservation and the protection of the community (invasion, insurrection, etc). How crime fits into that is a bit tricky, but I don't see the use of force for particualrly egregious crimes to be unethical on those grounds.

xander wrote:Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that when you execute someone, you are ending a human life. You are destroying a living, thinking, feeling entity. This is something that cannot be undone. You ask how society is improved by locking someone up for life. If the alternative is killing them? In many ways. A prisoner sentenced to life can be exonerated, or can demonstrate that they are no longer a threat to society and be released. They can contribute to society by producing goods (e.g. in a prison work program---though care needs to be taken that such programs are humane and not exploitative) or art. Perhaps most importantly, society is improved by the mere act of not condoning the execution of its members.


Fair point.

Certainly it is an act that cannot be undone, and so I do want it administered delicately. For those cases where I think it's appropriate, I'm not sure that rehabilitation is a reasonable option. While they might serve some productive means without being exploited, I guess I'll just have to disagree with you about the potential benifits outweigh the cons.
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Postby SpitJock » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:34 pm

Wow. Showing my naivety - I thought a thread labelled "...RANDOM" on a gaming forum would be strictly frivolous in nature...


FWIW, I think we're all gonna be wrong on this one.

For every surviving victim, grieving relative or righteously indignant bystander calling for punishment of any form, another will stand to say that the perpetrator needs to be treated for whatever illness caused this tragedy. Somewhere, lurking unseen among us, others will fail to see any tragedy or crime at all...

Of what value is punishment? No matter what happens next, the dead are still dead, the wounded still bled, and the grieving still grieve. Punishment as a deterrent is a myth. I do not steal because my own moral constitution precludes me from it, but if I were hungry enough and bereft of alternatives, I'd steal your car to get money for food regardless of the severity of the punishment. And in similar circumstances, you would steal mine without hesitation. There are those who would deny this, but they are fooling only themselves, and I would suggest have never really experienced true desperation. The animal hind-brain lives on in all of us, it can and will be pushed to any one of a thousand different edges in a billion different ways, and it cares not one whit for morality or legality.


I grieve for all the victims. The dead, the wounded, the bereaved, the witnesses, the clean-up crew, the righteously indignant, the ghoulishly exulted, the indifferent and unaffected, the guy who pulled the trigger, and the peace of mind of us all.
I say, let the nukes fly and give the cockroaches their chance. They'll fuck it all up every bit as badly as we have, though perhaps in different ways, but at least we won't have to watch and our collective grief, however expressed, will be at an end.

SJ
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Postby Laika » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:37 pm

My comment on a random quote from those walls of text

Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that when you execute someone, you are ending a human life. You are destroying a living, thinking, feeling entity. This is something that cannot be undone.


Hmm, so what. Do you really care about this particular living entity ? If seriously, IMO a good argument in favor of death sentence is economy of resources that would otherwise spent on the prisoner. Those resources could be invested in science, for example, and (maybe ?) eventually give more to humanity (do you know many smart, intelligent and hardworking guys that came out in prison ?) Buuut, considering other activities both of governmental and private levels of doubtful results, I feel that point losing some amount of sense.

edit

Not sure about productivity of prison labour, if it's profit is higher than costs of sustaining criminal's life, my arguments above are invalid and death sentence is a bad idea because of uneffecive resourse spending.
Last edited by Laika on Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Feud » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:43 pm

SpitJock wrote:Wow. Showing my naivety - I thought a thread labelled "...RANDOM" on a gaming forum would be strictly frivolous in nature...


Exactly. You expected that, so the random thing would be to have a serious discussion.
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Postby Mas Tnega » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:54 pm

Random simply means "without purpose" or sometimes "patternless". Basically, whatever comes up, comes up.

Some of us love to vocalise our issues with other people's political opinions, so it comes up.
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Postby Jordy... » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:56 pm

Crime rates perhaps suggest that punishment as a deterrent is a myth, but I'd disagree, it all depends from crime to crime and in what situations the perpetrators find themselves, but I'm confident that there is a category of criminals who do take into account (possible) punishments in a somewhat rational manner. How small or large that group might be is another question.
I also believe that at a certain point the effectiveness of deterrence diminishes, so death penalty as a deterrence contrary to live imprisonment MIGHT be a myth.
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Postby Laika » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:58 pm

Mas Tnega, how do you make colour of hair on your avatar changing ?
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Postby SpitJock » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:03 pm

Laika_rus wrote: IMO a good argument in favor of death sentence is economy of resources that would otherwise spent on the prisoner.


Well - let's add it up. (Almost) inevitable class action lawsuit against the theatre and/or EMS and ER staff, counselling and mental health care of the affected, cost of medical help for the wounded, cost of additional security measures put in place, etc. etc.

Be cheaper to keep the gunman alive in prison and kill all the victims, relatives, workers and lawyers who're gonna get involved, no?

Laika_rus wrote: do you know many smart, intelligent and hardworking guys that came out in prison?


Guessing you meant "out of prison" - personally, only two. I think it's rather more common than you think, though.
** EDIT** I had said something along the lines of "IQ in prison is about the same as IQ for non-prisoners", but that turns out to be complete rubbish. It turns out, in prisons in UK at least, a high proportion of prisoners have an IQ which is significantly below average. So a large proportion of UK prisoners are what other, more enlightened, civilizations might call "vulnerable" or "disadvantaged".

SJ
Last edited by SpitJock on Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jordy... » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:19 pm

Laika_rus wrote:Mas Tnega, how do you make colour of hair on your avatar changing ?


Magic..?

Also Mas.. I dreamed of you, sort off anyway, only you were a girl..
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Postby Mas Tnega » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:28 pm

Laika_rus wrote:Mas Tnega, how do you make colour of hair on your avatar changing ?

I'm actually linking to a php script RandAv.php. The /Lash.gif part is a lie I tell the forums to make it accept the image.

What it does:
It looks through the folder and finds all the files with "Lash" and ".gif" in their filename.
If there are images:
It picks one at random.
It reads that image.
It spits out the image with appropriate header data.
If not:
It does nothing.

tl;dr: I have a load of Lashes with different hair colours and you get a random one each time you load a page I've posted in.

Jordy... wrote:Also Mas.. I dreamed of you, sort off anyway, only you were a girl..

I see through your scheme to get me to tell you if I'm really a girl or not! You won't fool me!

PS: She was definitely faking it. And stop dreaming of me like that.

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