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xander
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Postby xander » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:46 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:Edit: Hehe, xander, again the grocery store analagy is a poor one. Doesn't the grocery store have insurance for broken pickle jars? Now, you'll say, "they're paying for the insurance", but I'll say, no, you are, as is their employees, and Americans don't have that type of insurance anyway. ad infinitum?

You are being to literal. In the analogy, the goal of the store is maximize profit. Profit is revenue minus costs. Revenue can be increased by charging more per item, or by making more sales. Costs are things like maintenance, wages, breakage, insurance, &c. The goal is to minimize net costs while maximizing net profits.

In a welfare system, the goal is to maximize the efficiency with which benefits are disbursed to people in need. Efficiency can be seen as the ratio of funds that go to people in need and the total available funds (i.e. funds disbursed to people in need plus employee wages plus enforcement plus fraud &c). In this case, the goal is then to minimize the non-disbursement terms in the denominator.

The analogy is imperfect, as are all analogies. However, the logic of the statements that I have made is sound. Fraud is one variable, among many. For simplicity, suppose that fraud and enforcement are the only variables. As a further simplifying assumption, let's assume that fraud is a function of enforcement (i.e. more enforcement means less fraud). Thus we can write W(x) = x + F(x), where x represents the amount of money spent on enforcement, f(x) represents the amount of money lost to fraud if x is spent on enforcement, and W(x) represents the total waste or inefficiency. Moreover, let's say that x ranges from 0 to 1, with 0 representing no money spent on enforcement and 1 representing 100% of all funds spent on enforcement. Clearly, W(1) = 1. That is, if we spend all of our money on enforcement, then we have wasted all of our money. On the other hand, we might assume that W(0) = 1-epsilon, where epsilon is so small as to make no difference. That is, if we spend no money at all on enforcement, then all of the money is lost to fraud.

With the final assumption that the overall waste function is more or less continuous, we may apply Rolle's Theorem (a basic result from calculus) to conclude that there is some x0 between 0 and 1 which minimizes W. That is, W(x0) is as small as we can make it. Note, however, that F(x0) need not be zero. That is, even at the optimum solution, there will almost certainly still be some fraud.

The assumption that I am making is that 0.3% lost to fraud is pretty close to the optimum. This seems a safe assumption as 0.3% is a very small amount of the total, and most enforcement regimes face exponentially dimishing returns.

xander
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Ace Rimmer
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:52 pm

xander wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:Edit: Hehe, xander, again the grocery store analagy is a poor one. Doesn't the grocery store have insurance for broken pickle jars? Now, you'll say, "they're paying for the insurance", but I'll say, no, you are, as is their employees, and Americans don't have that type of insurance anyway. ad infinitum?

You are being to literal.

Actually, I was just trying to be funny. :P
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Postby RabidZombie » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:00 pm

jelco wrote:Beep.

Jelco


Boop.

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Postby Jordy... » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:28 pm

Still, it was clear that my slam was no panopticon, and that I am more a builder and manager than I am any kind of spatial visionary for the future of keeping people incarcerated.
Cuz fuck logic
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Postby Cooper42 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:51 am

Since when were local (or even national) newspapers and television new in anyway a decent source of accurate information on - well - anything?

Never underestimate the ability of hacks to not understand a thing when it comes to numbers, and tos pin numbers out for style and effect.

It's not to hard to find better sources:
U.S. Department of Labor wrote:$580 million of the $2.45 billion in total UI overpayments for 2001, or 1.9% of total UI payments for that year, was attributable to fraud or abuse within the UI program.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:58 am

That's a bit, outdated? :P

Edit: and it also paints a worse picture, as it's focus is over-payments, not just fraud. Efficient government at work!

According to ETA’s Benefit Accuracy Measurement (BAM) data for calendar year 2001, 8.2% of all unemployment benefits, or a total of $2.45 billion, are classified as overpayments.
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Postby cza » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:01 am

I don't have time to read through all of this, but I will say that reports of welfare fraud are grossly exaggerated. It's always a sexy story for media to run since it confirms so many stereotypes, but also note that these stories almost always focus on dollars spent/consumer good acquired rather than the percentage of welfare spending the alleged fraudulent expenditures represent, or on the bad actor in isolation (or grouped with a couple other cheats) rather than the bad actor vs. total caseload (or total fraud actions vs. caseload). It gets the blood boiling to read about someone stealing $200,000, despite the miniscule amount this represents in total spending AND the very important reality that the person got caught, which means the system is doing its job.

There was a case recently in Massachusetts where some of the recipients made expenditures in "popular vacation destinations" like Florida. You actually had quotes from people wondering if these people were so poor that they needed state support, how come the were able to afford to travel. That shows you how screwed up people's attitudes are. Welfare is not house arrest, however much people would like it to be. There are all kinds of ways people could get down to Florida, and most probably are going to visit relatives or friends. I highly doubt they are staying at the Fountainebleau, and I don't lose a minute of sleep over this. The exception does not invalidate the rule; an anecdote does not call an entire system into question. But there's a big group of people who think the opposite.

Here's data on SNAP for 2008.
Total cases: 28,409,871.
Total disqualified from program: 48,311. (DQ via prosecution: 13,929; DQ via admin hearing: 34,382)

Of the 13,929 cases that went the prosecutorial route: 8238 ended in consent decree, 5,119 were convicted, 155 were acquitted (but still DQ).
Interestingly, reddish states led the way in total DQ: TX, TN, FL, GA, MS, OH, MI, NY, CA, NC are your top ten. TX is far and away the leader with 6,849 DQs. The next most, TN, is 3,879. NC is 1,671. However, at the time, half of the ten had GOP governors, and half had Dems.

If we go by DQs as a percentage of caseload, top ten are: MT, NV, MS, TN, MN, HI, GA, UT, CO, ID. (DQs made up .3115 percent of total caseload in GA).

The problem is miniscule. Though still greater than the political Sasquatch that is voter fraud.
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Postby Xarlaxas » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:48 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:Congrats! Now, go get a job, cut your hair, get offa xander's lawn, and pay some taxes. :P


Well, I'm actually working part time for my mother right now before I go to South America for awhile then hunt for a full-time graduate job, I actually do need to cut my hair, planning to do that at the end of October, xander's lawn is too comfy, and I don't need to pay US taxes until I'm making like $100,000 a year seeing as I live abroad, though I am paying VAT in the UK. ;)
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Postby xander » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:09 pm

Xarlaxas wrote:xander's lawn is too comfy

To be honest, it really isn't anymore---we have been moving house over the last month, and the new house has a landscaped front yard. It is mostly decomposing granite, basalt rubble, and drought tolerant plants. On the other hand, we have gone from paying $1400 a month for a mortgage to paying only $250 a month in rent. We also got a bigger back yard, and only lost 100 square feet of living space (most of it in the kitchen, unfortunately). Whee!

xander
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:03 pm

I have have access to your housing genie? :P
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Postby Feud » Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:57 am

Completed my first successful launch, orbit of the moon (Mun), and return in KPL. Feeling good. :D

Fuel was a big issue at the end. Thought I had enough but it takes a lot to burn off speed. Luckily I managed to drop my periphrasis low enough to get into the upper atmosphere, so I could use that to as a brake to degrade my orbit.
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Postby zjoere » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:46 pm

Back after a week long holiday in Turkey after graduation (I now have two master of sciences hooray, the sciences bow before me!). Now it's time to hunt for a job I guess :( studying was so much more fun
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Postby Feud » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:24 am

jelco wrote:So, about the Packers @ Seahawks game - that last play: seriously, what the fuck?


Blame the unions!
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Postby GreenRock » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:08 am

meh, football.
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Postby zjoere » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:30 am

we are the 47% has some funny entries :lol:
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