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Feud
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Postby Feud » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:08 pm

Xocrates wrote: (even if he did so without their consent).


That's not the consent I was talking about, I meant the consent of Congress, which is required for going to war. While a President may conduct operations for 90 days without Congressional consent, doing so offensively is a violation of both the spirit of the law, and that he did not seek Congressional consent after 90 days makes it all the more egregious.

And, in regards to the management style: what in Romney's past time in office makes you think that he will carry out a dangerous agenda? He almost didn't get nominated because his time as governor was so liberal, with some thinking he was more liberal in office than Obama has been. Don't get swayed by the puffery, doing so leads to a lot of disappointment with purchases. ;)
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Postby Xocrates » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:24 pm

Feud wrote:That's not the consent I was talking about, I meant the consent of Congress, which is required for going to war.

Ah. Those are not the kind of things that trickle out to the international community.

Feud wrote:And, in regards to the management style: what in Romney's past time in office makes you think that he will carry out a dangerous agenda?

I wasn't talking about Romney in particular, I was pointing out why if a politician is viewed with suspicion AND his previous management style and current views are contradictory, he's a lousy candidate.
Last edited by Xocrates on Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Xarlaxas » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:42 pm

Feud wrote:And, in regards to the management style: what in Romney's past time in office makes you think that he will carry out a dangerous agenda? He almost didn't get nominated because his time as governor was so liberal,


Well, he was the governor of a liberal state and had to adapt accordingly, now that he's the candidate for an alarmingly right-wing fringe party with some moderates attached he has done his darndest to bury any signs of liberalism and be as crazy as they are, the only exception being his views on abortion are slightly less heinous than his VP pick. That is not reassuring.

I knew about the whole consent of congress deal with regard to Libya, but that didn't bother me as I wouldn't have been surprised if the Republicans would have opposed it on the same principle that they opposed health-care for 9/11 First Responders: Obama was for it. With a political environment so toxic because of Republican obstructionism it's more aggravating than anything else that Obama hasn't been acting more like LBJ and FDR and just blasting his opposition with the support of the American people. *sigh*
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Postby Feud » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:33 am

Xarlaxas wrote:Well, he was the governor of a liberal state and had to adapt accordingly, now that he's the candidate for an alarmingly right-wing fringe party with some moderates attached he has done his darndest to bury any signs of liberalism and be as crazy as they are, the only exception being his views on abortion are slightly less heinous than his VP pick. That is not reassuring.

I knew about the whole consent of congress deal with regard to Libya, but that didn't bother me as I wouldn't have been surprised if the Republicans would have opposed it on the same principle that they opposed health-care for 9/11 First Responders: Obama was for it. With a political environment so toxic because of Republican obstructionism it's more aggravating than anything else that Obama hasn't been acting more like LBJ and FDR and just blasting his opposition with the support of the American people. *sigh*


37% of Americans identify themselves as Republicans, as opposed to 33% who consider themselves Democrats. I think that it's hard to claim the Republican party to be a "fringe" party when it's the party that most voters identify with.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... ffiliation

As for 9/11 health care issues, that's silly. Republicans are not against health care for first responder injuries received or resulting from 9/11. That they didn't like that particular bill doesn't mean that they don't support the issue, it means that they didn't like that bill.

As for obstructionism, why is it obstructionism when the Republicans in the House don't support Democrat bills, but you aren't saying the same about the Democratically controlled Senate's constant rejection of House passed bills? I agree, both sides are behaving childish. But, it's unfair to say that one side is the sole cause. Many bills have cleared the House by the Republican majority only to have the Senate democrats reject them on party locked voting.
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Postby Xocrates » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:46 am

Feud wrote:I think that it's hard to claim the Republican party to be a "fringe" party when it's the party that most voters identify with.

I believe Xarlaxas used fringe in the sense of extremist.
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Postby Feud » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:03 am

Xocrates wrote:
Feud wrote:I think that it's hard to claim the Republican party to be a "fringe" party when it's the party that most voters identify with.

I believe Xarlaxas used fringe in the sense of extremist.


How can something be extreme if it constitutes a plurality? By definition, isn't extreme outside the norm?
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Postby Xocrates » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:29 am

Feud wrote:How can something be extreme if it constitutes a plurality? By definition, isn't extreme outside the norm?

Indeed, the question then is what makes you think the US is the norm?

This discussion actually made me think of how bizarre the US is among the international community, mostly because it's perhaps the only one western country that is so unabashedly right-wing, heck, you're probably one of the very few countries in the world where that's the case.

It's dubious that the Republicans would even manage to have significant parliamentary presence in any other country, much less an actual majority.
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Postby Xarlaxas » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:35 am

Xocrates wrote:This discussion actually made me think of how bizarre the US is among the international community, mostly because it's perhaps the only one western country that is so unabashedly right-wing, heck, you're probably one of the very few countries in the world where that's the case.


I dunno, I'd say Iran is pretty Right-wing too!

Also, I was making a semi-joke that the Republican party has been devoured by the Tea Party, which is the extremist nut-job wing. I know that moderate Republicans exist, heck, people from the Bush administration have started looking moderate and I've started wishing for Reagan to rise from the grave and set the party straight, he'd actually raise taxes for one thing!
Last edited by Xarlaxas on Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Xocrates » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:37 am

Unless you count Iran as a western country, how does that contradict what I said?
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Postby Xarlaxas » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:39 am

It doesn't, I was just pointing out the irony that the countries most similar to the US are places like Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. filled with exciting puritanical values and disturbingly religious politicians. :P

[Also the country where a centre-left President gets on better with the Conservative PM of Britain than Romney and is still called a "Socialist."]
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Postby Feud » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:15 am

Xocrates wrote:Indeed, the question then is what makes you think the US is the norm?

This discussion actually made me think of how bizarre the US is among the international community, mostly because it's perhaps the only one western country that is so unabashedly right-wing, heck, you're probably one of the very few countries in the world where that's the case.

It's dubious that the Republicans would even manage to have significant parliamentary presence in any other country, much less an actual majority.


Well, 37% of American's make it around 115 million people identifying themselves as Republicans. I'm guessing that's not too far off any of the larger political movements in Europe, if we count them continentally. ;)

As for being right wing, we've had an entirely different development experience. Europe was crowded when we had almost unlimited land. When Europeans felt they had to fight the elites to gain a fair shake, American's just moved to the next horizon.

Our foundation of our national experience, from our revolution to the great immigration tides, is based upon the basic idea of "if you think Europe has got it wrong, come here, cause we do too and we're doing something different."

And what's funny about this is the entire reason the world cares about America's President is because for all our faults, for all the short comings and failures, and a terrible price paid in sorting things out along the way, it's been a remarkable success.

Xarlaxas wrote:It doesn't, I was just pointing out the irony that the countries most similar to the US are places like Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. filled with exciting puritanical values and disturbingly religious politicians. :P


Heh, whereas many Americans look at the European secular glorification as major facilitators of the terror of the French Revolution, Fascism, and the Soviet Union and think "they just don't get it." ;)

Again, different history. With a few exceptions, we haven't had the religious violence Europe has.
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Postby rus|Mike » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:13 am

When you ask people if they identify themselves as Republicans or Democrats, their answer will depend on their general believes (liberal/conservative for example), not on the current state of the Republican/Democrat party.

You can call yourself a democrat and not identify with current Democratic party at all. To get the picture of if the current Republican party extremist or not, you have to ask the question "Do you approve of Republican party and support their current agenda?", not "Are you republican?".
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Postby zjoere » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:34 am

I took a quiz online and according my results I side the most with Gary Johnson for the presidential election. And I only share 44% of Romney's views so I can hardly support him. We especially disagree on social issues like abortion, gay marriage, death penalty.
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Postby Xocrates » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:04 pm

zjoere wrote:I took a quiz online and according my results I side the most with Gary Johnson for the presidential election. And I only share 44% of Romney's views so I can hardly support him. We especially disagree on social issues like abortion, gay marriage, death penalty.


85% for Obama, with Romney at 36% for me

Bizarrely, it seems I side with Romney on healthcare even though I specifically said I support Obamacare :P
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Postby Feud » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:27 pm

85% for Romney on most stuff, 70% for Obama on others. :P

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