Xocrates Vs Xocrates: You would think I'm paranoid

[KingAl]

beno is just one of his many personalities...

[Radiant Caligula]

Who??

[shinygerbil]

The hero of this thread. Thirty pages of LOL.

[Radiant Caligula]

The hero of this thread. Thirty pages of LOL.

yeah, but I mean which one of my personalities were u referring to?


























Where am I???

[Masaq]

I'm a student pscyhiatric/mental health nurse (18 months into training, with six months prior as an unqualified nursing assistant)... that was the best non-clinical/layman's description of the effects of Schizophrenia I've read.

Don't wanna go into a debate on the medical model of healthcare vs holisitic, but what you said I'd largely agree with (on the basis that it's a very broad generalisation). In the UK at least though there's an increasing value being placed on the fact that Good Health leads to Good Mental Health, regardless of whether a body has a diagnosis or not.

Oh, and my favourite mental health fact is that at any moment, 1 in 4 people is having some form of mental health problem. Over an entire lifetimes, 4 out of 5 people will have some form of mental health problem, and the only reason the 5th guy won't have one is 'cause he's delusional

[Radiant Caligula]

thx, I only tried to give some insight from the inside (erm). I could have gone more technical, but explaining such a complex illness can't get much simpler than this. I beleive people deserve to be informed of it to break down all the ancient stigmas that have settled in the global society. Mental diseases invoke fear in people, only because they know so little about it. A broken mind is more difficult to fathom than a broken leg. But everyone needs human interaction and care to get better. I've been as open as I possibly can since I first got sick and that has helped me survive - and cope.


People with mental illnesses have received better pharmaceutical treatments the last decades for sure, but relying too heavily on drugs can be dangerous and I see an opening towards more holistic approaches in the general public. The "official" stance is still dragging behind, much controlled by the drug industry - however cliche that sounds.

Focusing on the brain can solve certain issues but dealing with chemical inbalances and forgetting that the body is an even greater gateway (such as chakras and the body's internal flow of energy f.ex) to good health is a path I hope psych workers will be able to get off.

The psychiatry (at least where I live) have their "domain" and their power over what is considered good treatment. These mechanics, when viewed objectively, are counter-productive to what is most important; The healing process of the individual. I hope future medicine and practices will learn to break down barriers that only serve to protect one professional group's territory instead of doing what is best for the common good.


If I would give you one piece of advice for your future career, it would be this:


Very generally speaking (apart from international variations), one thing the psychiatry has too much of (it shouldn't have any)? Fear. Yes, even the professionals that supposedly are trained to deal with the human psyche are drenched in it. Because they know that they in fact know very little about the mind and even less about the architecture of the very brain they are trying to treat. If you can venture on as a psych worker without fear and the professional darkness that trails it, you could be a positive beacon of light in a sea of institutionalised fearmongery. If psychiatrists could learn to be more open and not fear everything that is outside their knowledge, I'm convinced the general treatment of mentally ill people would be refreshed by this act alone.

A second thing - accute psychiatry tries to get people "functional". And that is sometimes their main goal. Many health programs settle for "functional individuals", i.e. people who can manage daily tasks. The aim for a health program should never be to get people functional but to raise them to their highest possible level of acheivement. Humans have endless resources and confining them to "functional" is in itself bad health care policy.
Mind you again I'm generalising...



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[Ace Rimmer]

I hope future medicine and practices will learn to break down barriers that only serve to protect one professional group's territory instead of doing what is best for the common good.

While I'm not opposed to the medical field, there is a reason that it's called a "practice".

While I have no experience that can compare to yours, I can wholeheartedly agree that anything outside of the "norm" is certainly feared by doctors and the general public...

I've had two kids and have one on the way. At the time of our first pregnancy we (my wife and I) were very undereducated as to how the human body produces another. We did the "normal" things a expectant couple do and had a very rough time and labor was certainly no picnic. Unfortunately, that pregnancy ended too soon (through no fault of any person) and all that was done was done in vain. However, it did inspire us to get better educated.

For our second try, we went with the Bradley method and to the surprise and dismay of all those around, had a completely and entirely drug free labor with minimal "interference" from the hospital. My wife would even tell you that for the most part, it 99.9% pain free.

For our third try, we were a bit more courageous, we decided to use a midwife instead of going to the hospital. She received a clean bill of health from her doctor (no expected complications, etc) so we had no fear. When we disclosed the whole midwife thing to our friends and family, some were surprised, some were shocked, some were scared "oh noes, you're all gonna die without a doctor!!!!!", and some even got angry. Needless to say, it was the best experience of our lives.

This next one will be even better.

In regards to birthing a normal healthy baby with a normal healthy mother, standard "procedure" works against the body and natural birthing process. Buy hey, there doctors so they must be gods! Yeah!

[Radiant Caligula]

that sound good. Many "modern" practices are too clinical for their own good. Giving birth to a new life should be a welcoming experience for all parties, most of all the newcomer. The warmer and friendlier we give a new baby, the healthier the baby. What happens to the baby the first 5 minutes are immensely important. Screw up and you are in danger of handing seeds to mental and physical issues to hte newborn. Making the delivery as comfortable as possible for all parties with natural methods produce healthy humans.

You seem like a swell guy with a swell family expanding. CONGRATS!
I wish you all good luck with the next one and I hope you continue to squeeze out one fabolous Rimmer after the other.




What a guy!

[Cooper42]

If psychiatrists could learn to be more open and not fear everything that is outside their knowledge, I'm convinced the general treatment of mentally ill people would be refreshed by this act alone.

P{ersonally, I've found that it's not fear, but arrogance.

I've worked in various medical environments over the past years - currently in the field of drug & alcohol addiction - and one thing is for sure: Consultants (Doctors) are arrogant, idiosyncratic and heavily 'set in their ways' (and I'm being kind).

You'll find most psychiatrists aren't fearful of psychologists, they just look down upon them. Psychiatrists feel like they deal with 'proper' medicine - they have their specialist field - which is people who have something chemically / biologically gone 'wrong'.

Psychologists, on the other hand, deal with mental issues which don't necessarily have a biological / chemical source.

Now, to any layperson, surely the two are inextricably linked? You'd be right - but no psychiatrist would ever admit it.

Tablets go only so far - few people with psychiatric problems don;t need psychological intervention.
Furthermore, a childhood full of abuse (example) is enough to screw anyone up - just because their brain functions 'within chemical norms' - doesn't mean they aren't deserving of expert, medical, help...

[Ace Rimmer]

that sound good. Many "modern" practices are too clinical for their own good. Giving birth to a new life should be a welcoming experience for all parties, most of all the newcomer. The warmer and friendlier we give a new baby, the healthier the baby. What happens to the baby the first 5 minutes are immensely important. Screw up and you are in danger of handing seeds to mental and physical issues to the newborn. Making the delivery as comfortable as possible for all parties with natural methods produce healthy humans.

I couldn't agree more with everything said here.

With both kids, people everywhere, even doctors, nurses, and the pediatrician commented on how truly surprised they were at the level of alertness of both so soon (like the moment they breached) and how content both were. Our first one even smiled before making it all the way out. Her first cry only came when they (more or less "roughly") began to clean her up. I can partly understand as they had other "patients" and duties and needed to be quick.

You seem like a swell guy with a swell family expanding. CONGRATS!
I wish you all good luck with the next one and I hope you continue to squeeze out one fabulous Rimmer after the other.

Thanks! Although, one after another.... we'll have to work out three first. They say two is good, but after that, you're outnumbered!

[Xocrates]

I've worked in various medical environments over the past years - currently in the field of drug & alcohol addiction - and one thing is for sure: Consultants (Doctors) are arrogant, idiosyncratic and heavily 'set in their ways' (and I'm being kind).

Being a son of two doctors myself, I would like to add that while that might be true to a certain extent, it is also true that they have to put up with a lot of crap on a daily basis, particularly those in the public sector.

Second, since an error in their profession can cost lives, it is expected that they trust in old and tested ways.

[Radiant Caligula]

]P{ersonally, I've found that it's not fear, but arrogance.

Believe me, that arrogance is in itself a nuclear reactor producing fear. But no human being is fearless and I can assure you that fear of all sorts flow like the Niagara through every heavy duty--->medium psych centre. I've been inside so many times and fighting my way out of that fear surrounding me is almost harder than struggling with myself.

People in distress shouldn't be engulfed with fear that is not their own. If it's one thing they should not be exposed to it's fear. Let the sunshine in. The walls need it...

[Cooper42]

I've worked in various medical environments over the past years - currently in the field of drug & alcohol addiction - and one thing is for sure: Consultants (Doctors) are arrogant, idiosyncratic and heavily 'set in their ways' (and I'm being kind).

Being a son of two doctors myself, I would like to add that while that might be true to a certain extent, it is also true that they have to put up with a lot of crap on a daily basis, particularly those in the public sector.

Second, since an error in their profession can cost lives, it is expected that they trust in old and tested ways.

I doubt they have to put up with particularly any more crap than other front-line public service providers.

The idiosyncracy is probably more linked to mindset of academics. But whilst having making sure that the left hand margin is exactly 1.4 inches, and using a ruler on every page to check that might not be an issue in a University - I can tell you that it's not appreciated in the under-funded and under-staffed public sector...

I will admit to being biased, due to the positions I've previously held. Many Consultants are wonderful people (especially paediatricians) albeit often quite strange (Gynecologists - I mean... Ewww?)

Even so, it's generally well-knopwn, throughout the NHS, that Consultants' (and above) dislike of change, and their deliberate distancing from those 'below' them is a major barrier to improvement. I've encountered so many times that someone has developed a wonderful, efficient, cost saving new initiative, welcomed by all, only to be rejected by Consultants, who will refuse to follow the change, as the idea comes from someone on a lower salary / without a medicine degree...

However, that's more of a cultural thing to do with Health Services than the individual Consultants, who are most likely kind and generous people...

Anyway, I guess that's my widely off-topic rant for today...

[Masaq]

Blimey, quite a sudden conversation! Only went into work for 5 hours and came back to find this lol...

Okay, generally in my (yup, limited) experiences to date the main barriers to first-rate patient care, specifically in mental health, are as follows:

1) Too much paperwork and red tape

2) Too few practioners of all kinds

3) A government-led drive towards cost efficiency (NICE Guidelines...) causing any proceedure, no matter how effective, to be valued primarily upon its cost than the benefits for the patient. A great example of this is in dementia drugs. They're at their most effective when used early, however if they're prescribed at their most effective, many many elderly people would be receiving them. They're new drugs so they're expensive, so they're only allowed to be prescribed for people who show more marked deterioration. By that point, the drugs are less effective as they can't restore lost faculties, only stave off the loss of ones still held.

4) Staff burnout / demoralisation. This was particularly marked on the ward where I worked as a Nursing Assistant. Instead of being used as a three-month max stay intensive care unit for the very acutely unwell, we were basically a dumping ground for all the patients the other wards either couldn't or wouldn't cope with. We ended up with some patients on the unit for over 2 years, or 8 times longer than our unit role/description said anyone should be there for. When you're working with the same person, on an inpatient ward, for over two years, of course you're going to get demoralised!


Radiant; I'd say that in the UK more and more emphasis is now being placed on everything aside from medication. While it's still often used probably more often than it should and without the additional support that's needed, this is recognised and certainly within every team I've worked with as a student now, there's been excellent staff who are willing to look at pretty much everything in a person's life and how they can support it.

Most definitely, with most staff I've spent time with there has been the emphasis that we're here to support people to the point at which they can achieve everything they want to achieve. Whether they just want to be discharged from secondary services, or to gain or change employment, or raise a family- we never say that "Well they can look after themself in their own place, that's enough". Our service for young people with first-episode psychosis in my area doesn't even work with a diagnosis, they really do treat as holistically as possible and support their clients to whatever point they want the support. (The team is recognised as one of the best in the UK for first-episode treatment and relapse prevention. 80% of their referrals don't relapse within a 3-year period after discharge. Considering that at my old ward, many of our patients relapsed within 3 months, that's quite impressive.)

[Radiant Caligula]

Thats good to hear. And I must admit I painted the darkest picture I could. I still believe psych tech can be augmented several lightyears, but we are having progress. We have several stages in Norwegian health care to support patients as well, I was simply pointing at fundamental issues that must be dealt with. I heard last week that a holistic practitioner who worked at a ward was allowed to perform "experimental" treatments on patients to great success. She gave healing and gave meditation classes. She did so much good that hopefully people higher up in the political system will shred their doubts about letting these "witch doctors" inside the public wards.

Another side that is utterly important is "user participation". Meaning that experienced patients (such as me) can enter focus groups aiming to better and correct the psych routines.