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Postby Aaargh » Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:54 pm

trickfred wrote:...Open source, and terribly confusing for Average Joe, or Ma and Pa Kettle. Ubuntu's making great strides at accessibility and ease of use, but it's still not there.


You make Open source sound terrible, while it is the most fantastic ever invented.
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Postby trickfred » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:22 pm

Aaargh wrote:
trickfred wrote:...Open source, and terribly confusing for Average Joe, or Ma and Pa Kettle. Ubuntu's making great strides at accessibility and ease of use, but it's still not there.


You make Open source sound terrible, while it is the most fantastic ever invented.


I was referring to linux specifically, not open source in general. Please don't infer things I didn't say. ;D
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Postby Babylon5 » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:36 pm

When you avatar is at purple Darwinian, I think you're Montyphy.
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No, I have NOT fixed my speakers.
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Postby Montyphy » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:58 pm

I don't have a purple one though. :P

However, I do sometimes get caught out by the red nuke button since Chittix also uses it.
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Postby Babylon5 » Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:25 pm

I also think Chittix is you. =/
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No, I have NOT fixed my speakers.
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Postby Chittix » Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:27 pm

Just to keep everyone's suspicion nice and high, I'll post RIGHT NOW to keep you wondering!!

If Montyphy and I are the same person, then who's the mild-mannered reporter, and who's the spandex-clad ninny with the cape?

And on a different note, a warning to anyone entering this thread:
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Re: The whole advert campaign is based on FUD and Apple's RD

Postby xander » Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:58 pm

NeoThermic wrote:Buha?! Right, lets keep this straight. The hardware and software of a default install of XP is stable. So is, accoring to you, (and I do belive you), OSX. *That* is the main point here. XP isn't as instable as the adverts make out. mal/spyware isn't included with the OS. It isn't purchased. It gets there through nefarious means, and if you do not have anti-virus or a good sense of logic, then you will get infected. The same applies for Macs, where I'm very sure that with an hour, a Mac and an internet connection, I could bring the machine down harder than gravity.

As was pointed out, it doesn't matter how the malware gets there. The average person doesn't know enough to prevent it. You claim that it is basic logic. Would you care to tell that to the teachers at this school who want pretty cursors for their desktop (while we are on the topic of desktops, most of them refer to the desktop image as their "screensaver")? Can you explain to them that the weather widget that they just downloaded contains spyware? Can you explain what spyware is? The people that are being marketted to by these adds are not you and me -- they are people that walk into CompUSA and say "I done wants me a compootar." As hard as you may find this to believe, most people really do not understand how computers work, and if something goes wrong, they are going to curse at the computer, not the spyware that they downloaded. This is the audience that is being advertised to.

NeoThermic wrote:Funky cables? What? Really. keyboard and mouse on computers these days are USB. Video is still the same connector we all love, the 15 pin VGA. Power cables are identical, and one needs to go into PC and monitor. Oh wow, we have one extra cable to plug in! The consumer will die before it gets turned on! Hell, with my keyboard, there's only one USB cable, and it does both keyboard and mouse!

I am not talking about the connectors -- I am talking about the cable that comes off of many of the monitors that are shipped with the Dells and HPs that I have to deal with. It is a big fat cable that bundles the data cable for the monitor, the cable to the speakers, and the microphone cable -- all of which are built into the monitor. The cable divides about 3 inches from the end, giving just enough slack to get everything plugged in. Compared to three cables for the Mac (four, if you get speakers, though the internal speakers are good enough that most average people don't bother), the 6 or 7 from the average OptiPlex are harder to deal with.


NeoThermic wrote:Yes, but my point still stands about usage figures in relation to the exploits. (of which your attempt to throw apache & IIS into the mix failed, something we've silently ignored...).

I'm sorry -- I thought that by leaving it out, it could be assumed that you had won that point. I would rather focus on things that have not been settled. As it seems that it will help you sleep better at night, you can have that point. In the future, you can just assume that anything that is omitted is conceded. :roll:

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xander wrote:Macs may not be as mind-bogglingly good as Apple claims they are -- they are advertisements, and meant to make Macs look as good as possible.


Which is why they are awful and why I say they are full of FUD and RDF.

Then what is the point of advertising? Any advertisement seeks to make the product being advertised seem like the greatest thing on Earth! This is true of Pepsi, McDonalds, and Advil. It is true of car commercials. The point of advertising is to make people want to buy your product. This often includes comparisons to other products, expecially when the product being promoted is not the leader in its particular market. Most people run Windows, and are familier with it and its shortcomings. Thus, Apple slightly exagerates those shortcomings in an effort to (1) be humourous (2) make their product look better (3) sell more computers.

They are not lying about their products, or about Windows. They are taking people's experience with Windows (and if you don't believe me, why don't you read through some of the tech support calls that people make -- most of them are posted on "joke" pages, because the questions that people ask seem so mind-bogglingly stupid), and comparing their product to that experience. Perhaps it is FUD, but only in that people really do fear their computers, are uncertain about how to work them, and have doubts about how well they work.

Your initial argument about the commercials was that they were lies, and FUD. You have failed to demonstrate to me that they lie (at least, not any more than any other commercial). If you would like to make the statement that all commercials are just as bad, on the basis that they exagerate, I will be willing to concede that the Apple commercials "lie," just like all other commercials. As to the FUD, the commercials may be taking advantage of the fact that people do not trust their computers, but they are not creating that distrust in the first place. If people trusted their Windows boxes, this approach to advertising wouldn't even get off the ground. The fact that they are making more such ads seems to imply that the ads are working.

NeoThermic wrote:That depends on if you want to play games or not.. ;)

Ah, but these commercials are not directed at the gaming crowd. They are directed at the group of people that wants to check their email, edit some photos, and maybe make a family video to send to grandma. I never have, and probably never will, claim that Macs are good for gaming. If you want to play games, get a Windows box. If Apple comes out with a commercial claiming that Macs are a better gaming platform, I would be the first to deride those commercials.

Aaargh wrote:Macs have a built in camera and speakers and sofort? If one of them breaks, you'll have to miss your Mac for a while. Builtin devices are anyways never as good as external.

Yeah, but people love those things. They may be crap, but the average person sees it as a "feature." It is something that they can play with that they probably wouldn't have gotten seperately, but enjoy since they have it (it is a "bonus feature," even). If they had gotten it seperately, it would have involved more cables, and one of the points that Apple is trying to make is that there are very few cables. So, to you, me, or NeoThermic, the built in devices are a cheap gimmick. To the not-so-tech-savvy, they are a desirable feature.

As trickfred said, those TVs with built in VCRs are crap. Yet notice how many of them get sold. The camera in an iBook^WMacBook may be crap, but it will still help sell the system, because it is the kind of crap that people go for.

Aaargh wrote:ANd what's with the viruses, I run my computer without an antivir for ages, and It has crashed only once, me being so stupid to overwrite the bootsector. I have as many problems with viruses as Macs.

Again, how do you compare to the people at the school where I work? Do you download cute little icon sets that come with spyware? How about toolbars for launching your favorite apps and malware? Do you open every email attachment that you get? Do you read all of those emails that say "ILOVEYOU?" Or are you savvy enough to realise that most of those things are vectors for malware?

The average person would have answered "yes" to at least one of those dangerous behaviours. They are the people being marketted to.


Aaargh wrote:Can you give me 100 games that run on Mac? It'll cost you a lot of time, while I just go to a couple of game sites.

As I said above, that is not the market that Apple is seeking. If you want the lastest FPS, get a Win box. However, if you want 100 games, have a look at Apple's downloads section. Right off, I see Quake 4, Halo, and Call of Duty 2. While I really don't know much about any of these games (they are all FPSes, right?), they have appeared in the media enough to have made an impression on my mind, so they must be at least somewhat high budget and/or popular.

Aaargh wrote:The only thing that bothers me are the lockups and crashes. But even then, I prefer Linux above Mac, because Linux is open-source.

Wow! First you tell me that Macs suck because they have no games, then you claim that Linux is better because it is open source?! You don't see the contradiction there? Also, may I point out that the open source crowd is also not the intended market. The intended audience probably doesn't even know what the words "open source" mean, and has probably on the vaugest notion of what Linux is (assuming that they have heard the term at all). Sorry, Linux just doesn't cut it for the masses, though it may yet get there... someday.

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Last edited by xander on Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Montyphy » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:10 pm

Everyone knows Linux, he's that guy from Peanuts, right? :P
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Postby Aaargh » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:18 pm

Contradiction? Where?

I am
1. a gamer
2. a programmer

For games, I go to Windows, for programming, I also use Windows.
If I were a musician, or If I made movies, I would be stupid nnot to tuse a Mac. And I find Linux better than both Windows and Mac in the point that it is open source, and some other minor points, I'm not saying Linux is better than WIndows or Mac in all points (im thinking so, ut not saying). Every OS and manufactuere has it good and bad points, average users might be beter with Mac, but I'm not average.
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Postby Montyphy » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:30 pm

I believe the contradiction you made was that you said Macs don't support many games yet Linux sometimes suffers from the exact same thing.
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Postby xander » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:41 pm

Montyphy wrote:I believe the contradiction you made was that you said Macs don't support many games yet Linux sometimes suffers from the exact same thing.

Exactly. You criticise the Mac for not being a gaming machine, then praise Linux, which is also not a gaming machine. I believe this falls under the category of "the right tool for the right job." If I were a gamer, I would want a Windows box. For programming, I am not so sure that the Mac is a bad alternative. It uses a BSD core, and you have access to all of those Linux things that are nice to have (bash, vi (no! emacs!), X11, gcc, &c.). You also have a lickable GUI and XCode. I just don't see how Linux is significantly better than OS X as a development platform, unless you are kernel hacking.

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Postby Aaargh » Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:01 pm

Well um... it's just.... Oh fiddlesticks, I give up.

It's just not correct to pay for an OS, if there is a free open source one.

EDIT: Linux has Wine, I can't think of anything the same for OS X
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Re: The whole advert campaign is based on FUD and Apple's RD

Postby NeoThermic » Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:07 pm

Just to start with the humour:

xander wrote:[quoate="NeoThermic"]


You fail at quoting ;)


Anyway, lets be serious.

xander wrote:You claim that it is basic logic. Would you care to tell that to the teachers at this school who want pretty cursors for their desktop (while we are on the topic of desktops, most of them refer to the desktop image as their "screensaver")? Can you explain to them that the weather widget that they just downloaded contains spyware? Can you explain what spyware is?


Yes, yes, yes. Please send me an application form for the IT department of where you work. It appears that if teachers are doing silly things like this, someone needs to educate them as to what these things are. :P

xander wrote:The people that are being marketted to by these adds are not you and me -- they are people that walk into CompUSA and say "I done wants me a compootar." As hard as you may find this to believe, most people really do not understand how computers work, and if something goes wrong, they are going to curse at the computer, not the spyware that they downloaded. This is the audience that is being advertised to.


I do not find it hard to belive that people are either ignorant or stupid when it comes to computers. Hell, (IIRC), Babbage was asked after he demonstrated the idea for the calculation machine:

Pray tell, if you put in incorrect information, does it output correct informaton?


If you walk into CompUSA for a computer, I'll wager this dollar on my desk that you'll get some form of anti-virus with the OEM installed OS. These days anti-virus also does anti-mal/spyware, and thus the end user doesn't need to know much about them; the anti-virus will do its best to install fear and clean up after the user.

xander wrote:I am not talking about the connectors -- I am talking about the cable that comes off of many of the monitors that are shipped with the Dells and HPs that I have to deal with. It is a big fat cable that bundles the data cable for the monitor, the cable to the speakers, and the microphone cable -- all of which are built into the monitor. The cable divides about 3 inches from the end, giving just enough slack to get everything plugged in.


Whoa there. Do be carefull now. If you walk into that CompUSA, I'm very sure you will not get a Dell or a HP computer that is made for the workplace. I kid you not, the machines you deal with at work are not the ones that the joe sixpack gets when he asks for a computer at the store. The cables you're talking about are non-standard. Every monitor in this house has one VGA cable (or DVI in my case), and one power cable, nothing more nothing less.

xander wrote:Compared to three cables for the Mac (four, if you get speakers, though the internal speakers are good enough that most average people don't bother), the 6 or 7 from the average OptiPlex are harder to deal with.


I'll say this again, although in a more direct way, if you're having a problem with three or four extra colour-coded cables then you should not be using a computer. Even our Joe sixpack can work out that the pink cable goes into the pink hole, and the green one into the green hole. He learnt this in kindergarten.



xander wrote:I'm sorry -- I thought that by leaving it out, it could be assumed that you had won that point. I would rather focus on things that have not been settled. As it seems that it will help you sleep better at night, you can have that point. In the future, you can just assume that anything that is omitted is conceded. :roll:


I can sleep now! In all truth, I thought you were ignoring the point to further your arguments. I did not say it to help myself sleep better.

xander wrote:Then what is the point of advertising? Any advertisement seeks to make the product being advertised seem like the greatest thing on Earth! This is true of Pepsi, McDonalds, and Advil. It is true of car commercials. The point of advertising is to make people want to buy your product. This often includes comparisons to other products, expecially when the product being promoted is not the leader in its particular market.


However, when was the last time a McDonalds advert took a Burger King burger, and said, "ohh, at McDonalds our burgers are 100% beef, while at burger king they are gristile and the spit from the teenager who served you!"? Adverts can make their product look better, sure, that is the point and I do agree, but there is a line. You should not outright lie or ignore legal facts in order to obtain this goal. It could be constituted as liable or slander depending on the advert medium, which is why many adverts do not attempt to do this.

Apple are only doing it because they know that it would be difficult for MS to sue Apple on the bases of the adverts because of the way MS has projected an image in the minds of people. (i.e. they will never get an unbiased fair trial anymore).

This is my main gripe with Apple's adverts. Sure their Macs might be wonderfull, but I don't wish to see Apple attempt to cast this idea with some lies and FUD to the general population. It makes them look bad and it angers some people.


xander wrote:They are not lying about their products, or about Windows.


Oh, right, so Windows is still in DLL hell, Vista copied Mac with many of its new features, Windows can't talk to a USB device (despite the fact that is the damn point of USB), Windows is for work only and you can't have fun on it, and my XP computer is riddled with viruses and spyware at this second in time. These are all lies that are either in the adverts mentioned or from things like the WWJD (or whatever they love to call that thing).

xander wrote:Perhaps it is FUD, but only in that people really do fear their computers, are uncertain about how to work them, and have doubts about how well they work.


This is the thing that I find most amazing about older people. My mother fears computers sometimes due to they way that it does what it needs to, rather than what she expects. A computer is no diffrent from a car in the sense that if you learn how to use it and operate it right, it will work the way you expect it to. I, and many others (especially those in tech support), would love to see Computer Licences where you have to take a test to buy and use a computer. However, I will note that for these people, Windows or Mac will be as confusing as each other. There is no "better" here.

xander wrote:Your initial argument about the commercials was that they were lies, and FUD. You have failed to demonstrate to me that they lie (at least, not any more than any other commercial).


Find me a car commercial where they lie. I'll silently point out that adverts do fall under most legal restrictions for description of items and the subsequent laws, and thus if an advert says product XYZ can do A, B and C, it has to by law. This is why I think you'll find it hard, if not impossible, to find a car commercial where they lie.

xander wrote:As to the FUD, the commercials may be taking advantage of the fact that people do not trust their computers, but they are not creating that distrust in the first place. If people trusted their Windows boxes, this approach to advertising wouldn't even get off the ground. The fact that they are making more such ads seems to imply that the ads are working.


Distrust of computers is deeper than the OS it runs. It is a distrust and fear of the unkown. If you take someone who distrusts a computer and sit them infront of mac, they will elicit the same problems and response as if you sat them down infront of a Windows computer.

xander wrote:Ah, but these commercials are not directed at the gaming crowd. They are directed at the group of people that wants to check their email, edit some photos, and maybe make a family video to send to grandma.


Somehow a Windows computer is incapable of doing these? :\

xander wrote:I never have, and probably never will, claim that Macs are good for gaming. If you want to play games, get a Windows box. If Apple comes out with a commercial claiming that Macs are a better gaming platform, I would be the first to deride those commercials.


It was a funny jab at the adverts for ommiting this kind of attempt, but if they do make one (as you mention they are making more), than I shall link it here in a brand new topic just for the shear hell of getting you to agree the adverts lie :)

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Postby Chittix » Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:53 pm

Help! I'm drowning in tech zealots!!
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Postby Lastof » Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:39 pm

Aaargh wrote:EDIT: Linux has Wine, I can't think of anything the same for OS X


You mean like darwine, the wine port for OSX.....

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