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Postby trickfred » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:07 am

xander wrote:...a metric fuckton...


Heh. I love it when he says that. :D
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Postby xander » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:09 am

trickfred wrote:
xander wrote:...a metric fuckton...


Heh. I love it when he says that. :D

Would you prefer I use imperial units :)

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Postby NeoThermic » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:10 am

xander wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:For example, the "fact" about PC's needing rebooting constantly due to crashes. The last time my computer died horribly was due to me overclocking the hell out of my graphics card (which subsequently brought the whole system to a stop). The last time my computer has died without me attacking it? Never. Ever. (so thats 'Restarting' debunked)

I can't really debate this one, only point out the fact that many people who are not computer savvy end up with a metric fuckton of malware on their boxes, and this causes the machines to freeze, reboot, &c. If you were to talk to the average person who went out and bought a computer to get on teh interwebs, I think you would find this complaint. I know that run across it on a daily basis in the school where I work. My mother got rid of her WinXP box because it was constantly crashing (probably due to driver conflicts caused by my brother and his games, and my sister and her interwebing). Of course, I am responding to one anecdote with more anecdotes, so neither argument can really be called statistically valid. I still think that most Joe Sixpacks see computers in general as being prone to crashing and rebooting. And this ignores the people that are still using Win98 or Win2k (and, based on the server logs that you have shown us from these boards, there are still a number of them around).


Yes, but mal/spyware crashing the OS isn't the fault of the OS. I could probibally get some nasty stuff on a Mac and have it crash. The point here is that 2K and XP (infact, anything built on NT kernel) is amazingly stable, and not as restart happy as the adverts like to make out. Anything less than 2K has support dropped by MS anyway, so including those into the stats is like lumping in Mac OS 8 or similar into the crash statistics for Macs.


xander wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:Moving on, 'Out of the box' ignores the fact that if MS were to bundle the aformentioned items into its OS, it would be crucified in an anti-monopoly lawsuit (hell, they had one over IE and WMP.). Plus, XP is *one* disk. Not many as the advert implies.

Unless I am seriously misunderstanding the out of the box add, there are at least three points that Apple is making:
1) Macs come with bundled apps.
2) Windows machines require a good bit of updating on setup.
3) Macs come in one box, and are easy to setup.


Point #2 is a falicy. If I walk out and into PC World and buy a computer, I get XP with SP2. I might have to install three patches on top of this, but nothing near like the suggestion that the advert made. As for #3, I'm sure a PC is just as easy. Plug in the keyboard, mouse, monitor and power cable, and you're done. Hell, they are even colour-coded so you can't get them wrong!

xander wrote:And, even if MS would be crucified for bundling apps, Apple does not have a monopoly and is not subject to the same rules. The fact that Macs come with bundled apps is a plus in the minds of many, and is not a lie. Some of the context is missing, but it is not an outright lie.


I didn't say that the advert in question ('Out of the box') was a lie, I mearly stated that it is ignoring major facts.


xander wrote:In contrast, most Windows desktop machines (the ones that the iMac is competing against) require that you plug power into both the monitor and the tower, plug in the mouse and keyboard, plug in the internet, plug in the microphone and speaker cables from the monitor (most Dells and HPs do this). It is not a lot more cables, but it is enough to be a hassle.


Whoa, adding in speakers & micraphone there is a bit misleading, but if you wish to go that far, many new cases these days have both those ports on the front facia. On top of that, it's all colour coded, something that you've admited before that Macs do not do.

xander wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:Then we have 'Viruses'. Macs can get viruses. Macs are as insecure as PC's. Just the userbase isn't significant enough to bother trying anything with.

Macs can get viruses, yes. Can you name more than a handful that have struck in the last 30 years?


I've got 30 years? Aww. How about 2006?
OSX/Leap.A (jumps using ichat, not to dissimilar to MSN's viruses of past)
OSX/Inqtana.A (spreads via bluetoth, although was more POC than worm)
OSX/Inqtana.B, OSX/Inqtana.C were wild viruses.

Thats 4 from memory. While I'll admit that PC's are not the saints in terms of infections, if you're being logical and running an anti-virus (which Joe Sixpack gets free with his OEM installed OS!), you'll be safe.


xander wrote:As to the userbase argument -- which has the larger userbase: Apache or IIS? which is exploited more?


Well, Apache 2.0.x vs IIS 6.0.x:
Apache 2.0.x, 2006 only: 4 advisories
IIS 6.0.x, 2006 only: 1 advisory

I'm sure you know which is in use more; sorry for busting that argument ;)

xander wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:'Network'; Yeah, I plug in my camera to XP, and boom! Without needing drivers, XP knows its a "mass storage device", and offers me an option of what to do, as it knows that the media on the camera contains only images, and thus the options are centred around image based options.

This isn't true of all devices. While many devices work right out of the box on Windows machines, there are a good number that don't. I have had trouble with thumbdrives, printers, a couple of cameras, and one of those card readers for a camera. All but the card reader worked on the first try on my PowerBook. Again, the experience of the average, not very tech savvy consumer is that plug-and-play devices often aren't.


My, that is intresting. I've plugged in the following items without need of drivers to get working:

  • USB keys
  • card readers (MMC, SD, CF)
  • digital cameras (two nikons and one cannon)
  • three printers (all HP)
  • PDA (Acer)
  • MP3 player (Olympus)
  • Joysticks & gamepads
  • probibally something else I've forgotton

Sure, again, anything less than 2K has crap USB support, but as noted above, anything less than 2K is *not* supported by MS anymore and thus should not be counted in this argument (else I'll crack out things based on Mac OS 8).

xander wrote:While I agree that much of the campaign is based on FUD, I don't see any blatant lies in any of the comercials. If you know what you are doing, then you probably never see the issues mentioned. However, most people don't know what they are doing.


I think it comes down to those who are suseptable to the FUD and RDF of the adverts will fall for them. The grass, however, isn't as green on the other side, and they will only realise when they get there..

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Postby xander » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:35 am

NeoThermic wrote:Yes, but mal/spyware crashing the OS isn't the fault of the OS. I could probibally get some nasty stuff on a Mac and have it crash. The point here is that 2K and XP (infact, anything built on NT kernel) is amazingly stable, and not as restart happy as the adverts like to make out. Anything less than 2K has support dropped by MS anyway, so including those into the stats is like lumping in Mac OS 8 or similar into the crash statistics for Macs.

The add is selling Macs. This includes the OS and the hardware and the bundled apps. If people have the experience of the computer crashing a lot, it doesn't matter what the culprit is.

NeoThermic wrote:Point #2 is a falicy. If I walk out and into PC World and buy a computer, I get XP with SP2. I might have to install three patches on top of this, but nothing near like the suggestion that the advert made. As for #3, I'm sure a PC is just as easy. Plug in the keyboard, mouse, monitor and power cable, and you're done. Hell, they are even colour-coded so you can't get them wrong!

1) The Mac connectors are labeled, even if they are not color coded.
2) The Mac connectors, like the PC connectors, have specific shapes. You couldn't plug the USB into the sound card, even if you tried.
3) A couple of patches is still more than none.
4) Again, it is a slight exageration, but not an outright lie. You claimed that the adds lied.

NeoThermic wrote:Whoa, adding in speakers & micraphone there is a bit misleading, but if you wish to go that far, many new cases these days have both those ports on the front facia. On top of that, it's all colour coded, something that you've admited before that Macs do not do.

I am comparing specifically to the Dell and HP machines that are ordered for the school. The monitor has built in speakers and a microphone, which must be plugged into the back of the machine, because the data cable for the monitor and the other two are all bundled together. This is what most people are going to be buying (i.e. consumer models, e.g. the OptiPlex series). I still think that plugging in the power and the keyboard to the back, and the mouse into the keyboard is a hell of a lot easier than plugging in the monitor (power and data), plugging in the tower (power), plugging in both the mouse and the keyboard to the back of the tower, and dealing with the funky cables that many of the consumer models come with. Especially when I am working on a desk, and don't have a great deal of space to move around in.

NeoThermic wrote:
I've got 30 years? Aww. How about 2006?
OSX/Leap.A (jumps using ichat, not to dissimilar to MSN's viruses of past)
OSX/Inqtana.A (spreads via bluetoth, although was more POC than worm)
OSX/Inqtana.B, OSX/Inqtana.C were wild viruses.

Thats 4 from memory. While I'll admit that PC's are not the saints in terms of infections, if you're being logical and running an anti-virus (which Joe Sixpack gets free with his OEM installed OS!), you'll be safe.

As you say, that's four. No one said that Macs were immune (it is implied, though not outright stated in the commercial), only that they are far more secure. Mentioning 4 viruses against a sea of MS viruses is a bit unconvincing.

NeoThermic wrote:My, that is intresting. I've plugged in the following items without need of drivers to get working:

  • USB keys
  • card readers (MMC, SD, CF)
  • digital cameras (two nikons and one cannon)
  • three printers (all HP)
  • PDA (Acer)
  • MP3 player (Olympus)
  • Joysticks & gamepads
  • probibally something else I've forgotton

I, too, have plugged in a good number of those things and had no trouble on Windows boxes. I did not state that nothing works with Windows, only that I have had much better success with the Mac OS

NeoThermic wrote:Sure, again, anything less than 2K has crap USB support, but as noted above, anything less than 2K is *not* supported by MS anymore and thus should not be counted in this argument (else I'll crack out things based on Mac OS 8).

OS 8 and 9 were largely crap, and no one uses them anymore. On the other hand, while Win98 is no longer supported, a fair number of people do still use them. Thus it is fair to compare a Mac to a machine running Win98, because people are still using it. Again, look at the server logs. Hell, my machine at work didn't get updated to XP until this year. The people that are being targeted are those that want cheap computers, and already own cheap computers. A fair number of them are likely to still be running Win98 (or WinMe, or Win2k).

NeoThermic wrote:The grass, however, isn't as green on the other side, and they will only realise when they get there..

Macs may not be as mind-bogglingly good as Apple claims they are -- they are advertisements, and meant to make Macs look as good as possible. That doesn't mean that Apples are crap, or that they won't be better liked than the Windows boxes that are (theoretically) being left behind. To extend your metaphore, while the grass may not be as green as Apple says it is, it is at least as green as on the Windows side, and probably greener.

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Postby Montyphy » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:39 am

xander wrote:2) The Mac connectors, like the PC connectors, have specific shapes. You couldn't plug the USB into the sound card, even if you tried.


It may not fit into the sound card but USB can fit a RJ45 socket, or so I've heard :wink:
Last edited by Montyphy on Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby xyzyxx » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:41 am

Image

Still my favorite.


:P
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Postby Chittix » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:41 am

Where has the thread wandered off to?

If anyone hasn't already, I recommend you download trickfred's lovely icon compilation. I'm installing new games right now just to have an excuse to use the various icons.
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The whole advert campaign is based on FUD and Apple's RDF.

Postby NeoThermic » Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:02 am

xander wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:Yes, but mal/spyware crashing the OS isn't the fault of the OS. I could probibally get some nasty stuff on a Mac and have it crash. The point here is that 2K and XP (infact, anything built on NT kernel) is amazingly stable, and not as restart happy as the adverts like to make out. Anything less than 2K has support dropped by MS anyway, so including those into the stats is like lumping in Mac OS 8 or similar into the crash statistics for Macs.

The add is selling Macs. This includes the OS and the hardware and the bundled apps. If people have the experience of the computer crashing a lot, it doesn't matter what the culprit is.


Buha?! Right, lets keep this straight. The hardware and software of a default install of XP is stable. So is, accoring to you, (and I do belive you), OSX. *That* is the main point here. XP isn't as instable as the adverts make out. mal/spyware isn't included with the OS. It isn't purchased. It gets there through nefarious means, and if you do not have anti-virus or a good sense of logic, then you will get infected. The same applies for Macs, where I'm very sure that with an hour, a Mac and an internet connection, I could bring the machine down harder than gravity.

xander wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:Point #2 is a falicy. If I walk out and into PC World and buy a computer, I get XP with SP2. I might have to install three patches on top of this, but nothing near like the suggestion that the advert made. As for #3, I'm sure a PC is just as easy. Plug in the keyboard, mouse, monitor and power cable, and you're done. Hell, they are even colour-coded so you can't get them wrong!

1) The Mac connectors are labeled, even if they are not color coded.
2) The Mac connectors, like the PC connectors, have specific shapes. You couldn't plug the USB into the sound card, even if you tried.
3) A couple of patches is still more than none.
4) Again, it is a slight exageration, but not an outright lie. You claimed that the adds lied.


My main claim was:
NeoThermic wrote:The whole advert campaign is based on FUD and Apple's RDF.


Which you've agreed with me on.

xander wrote:I still think that plugging in the power and the keyboard to the back, and the mouse into the keyboard is a hell of a lot easier than plugging in the monitor (power and data), plugging in the tower (power), plugging in both the mouse and the keyboard to the back of the tower, and dealing with the funky cables that many of the consumer models come with. Especially when I am working on a desk, and don't have a great deal of space to move around in.


Funky cables? What? Really. keyboard and mouse on computers these days are USB. Video is still the same connector we all love, the 15 pin VGA. Power cables are identical, and one needs to go into PC and monitor. Oh wow, we have one extra cable to plug in! The consumer will die before it gets turned on! Hell, with my keyboard, there's only one USB cable, and it does both keyboard and mouse!


xander wrote:IAs you say, that's four. No one said that Macs were immune (it is implied, though not outright stated in the commercial), only that they are far more secure. Mentioning 4 viruses against a sea of MS viruses is a bit unconvincing.


Yes, but my point still stands about usage figures in relation to the exploits. (of which your attempt to throw apache & IIS into the mix failed, something we've silently ignored...).



xander wrote:OS 8 and 9 were largely crap, and no one uses them anymore. On the other hand, while Win98 is no longer supported, a fair number of people do still use them. Thus it is fair to compare a Mac to a machine running Win98, because people are still using it. Again, look at the server logs.


The server logs show hits on this forum from OS9. Win98 accounts for 0.9% of windows hits on these forums. OS9 accounts for 0.78% of Mac hits on the forums. With percentages this close, what do you want to do? Discount both OS9 and Win98, or include both and watch some of your aguments suffer? (as you mention that 9 was 'largely crap'). People are still using both, lets not look away from the facts.

xander wrote:Hell, my machine at work didn't get updated to XP until this year. The people that are being targeted are those that want cheap computers, and already own cheap computers. A fair number of them are likely to still be running Win98 (or WinMe, or Win2k).


I'm not sure why you keep lumping 2K in with 98 & ME. 2K is basically XP without the fancy GUI. 2K and 98/ME are two totally diffrent products, two totally diffrent codebases. Don't lump them. Those who want cheap computers will find it impossible not to get XP, and those who already own a computer will find it impossible to install new apps (that require 2k or better), and thus will need to upgrade. 92.2% of windows hits on these forums are XP, 4.5% were 2K, the rest being spred across hits from 98, ME, CE, NT, 2K3, and Vista. Most people who run windows run XP, there is no escaping this fact.


xander wrote:Macs may not be as mind-bogglingly good as Apple claims they are -- they are advertisements, and meant to make Macs look as good as possible.


Which is why they are awful and why I say they are full of FUD and RDF.

xander wrote:That doesn't mean that Apples are crap, or that they won't be better liked than the Windows boxes that are (theoretically) being left behind.


Of course, I never state that Apples are crap. However, neither are XP computers.

xander wrote:To extend your metaphore, while the grass may not be as green as Apple says it is, it is at least as green as on the Windows side, and probably greener.


That depends on if you want to play games or not.. ;)

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Postby trickfred » Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:27 am

I'm just gonna poke my head in here, and say from a hobbyist's point of view, that you can't really build a mac from parts chosen by yourself, and that's the main reason why I don't (and probably won't in the near future) own one. I like shopping for parts, I like assembling the parts, getting thermal silver all over my fingers, and hearing the resounding 'snap' as I seat the RAM and cards into the board. I even like bitching about how every motherboard I've ever seen has its floppy ribbon connector in a really shitty place. :D

And I think xander is definitely right about one thing - when Joe Podunk's system gets chock full of viruses/malware, he's most likely going to start bitching about his 'stupid computer' and not see that they had anything to do with it, because he really doesn't know any better (Just like my in-laws). Not the fault of the OS, but perceived to be by those that just don't know any better (and can't help themselves when they see shiny bouncing banner ads) (Damn them! I have to clean up their mess!).

You two can carry on verbally pummeling each other now.
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Postby trickfred » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:23 am

Double post, but actually related to the thread. *gasp!*

If you want an Uplink icon that matches the other ones Chittix and I have done, they can now be found at the link below.

http://forums.introversion.co.uk/darwin ... =4795#4795
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Postby Aaargh » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:06 pm

Macs have a built in camera and speakers and sofort? If one of them breaks, you'll have to miss your Mac for a while. Builtin devices are anyways never as good as external.

ANd what's with the viruses, I run my computer without an antivir for ages, and It has crashed only once, me being so stupid to overwrite the bootsector. I have as many problems with viruses as Macs.

Can you give me 100 games that run on Mac? It'll cost you a lot of time, while I just go to a couple of game sites.

The only thing that bothers me are the lockups and crashes. But even then, I prefer Linux above Mac, because Linux is open-source.
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Postby Babylon5 » Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:04 pm

Aaargh wrote:Macs have a built in camera and speakers and sofort? If one of them breaks, you'll have to miss your Mac for a while. Builtin devices are anyways never as good as external.


Not all of them have built-ins.
Image

No, I have NOT fixed my speakers.
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Postby Darksun » Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:37 pm

Might have been posted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk15iIkKofc

Makes me laugh
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Postby trickfred » Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:44 pm

Aaargh wrote:Macs have a built in camera and speakers and sofort? If one of them breaks, you'll have to miss your Mac for a while. Builtin devices are anyways never as good as external.


That's why those TVs with a built in VCR or DVD player are a bad idea.

Aaargh wrote:Can you give me 100 games that run on Mac? It'll cost you a lot of time, while I just go to a couple of game sites.


Even I will admit that's silly, really. Apple.com alone has demos/shareware versions of 668 games listed. Yes, many popular games don't have Mac ports, but them's the breaks when you have a lower install base. Most people going in to buy a Mac are aware of that fact, and can deal with it. Many first-rate games are also Mac-only. Does that mean PCs suck because there are a few games they can't play?

Aaargh wrote:The only thing that bothers me are the lockups and crashes. But even then, I prefer Linux above Mac, because Linux is open-source.


...Open source, and terribly confusing for Average Joe, or Ma and Pa Kettle. Ubuntu's making great strides at accessibility and ease of use, but it's still not there.

(Wait... did I just defend the Mac?)

*hurries off to take a shower and scrub the Mac off of him*
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Postby xyzyxx » Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:46 pm

Darksun wrote:Might have been posted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk15iIkKofc

Makes me laugh
I always loved that video.
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