xander wrote:...a metric fuckton...
Heh. I love it when he says that.
Moderator: Defcon moderators
xander wrote:NeoThermic wrote:For example, the "fact" about PC's needing rebooting constantly due to crashes. The last time my computer died horribly was due to me overclocking the hell out of my graphics card (which subsequently brought the whole system to a stop). The last time my computer has died without me attacking it? Never. Ever. (so thats 'Restarting' debunked)
I can't really debate this one, only point out the fact that many people who are not computer savvy end up with a metric fuckton of malware on their boxes, and this causes the machines to freeze, reboot, &c. If you were to talk to the average person who went out and bought a computer to get on teh interwebs, I think you would find this complaint. I know that run across it on a daily basis in the school where I work. My mother got rid of her WinXP box because it was constantly crashing (probably due to driver conflicts caused by my brother and his games, and my sister and her interwebing). Of course, I am responding to one anecdote with more anecdotes, so neither argument can really be called statistically valid. I still think that most Joe Sixpacks see computers in general as being prone to crashing and rebooting. And this ignores the people that are still using Win98 or Win2k (and, based on the server logs that you have shown us from these boards, there are still a number of them around).
xander wrote:NeoThermic wrote:Moving on, 'Out of the box' ignores the fact that if MS were to bundle the aformentioned items into its OS, it would be crucified in an anti-monopoly lawsuit (hell, they had one over IE and WMP.). Plus, XP is *one* disk. Not many as the advert implies.
Unless I am seriously misunderstanding the out of the box add, there are at least three points that Apple is making:
1) Macs come with bundled apps.
2) Windows machines require a good bit of updating on setup.
3) Macs come in one box, and are easy to setup.
xander wrote:And, even if MS would be crucified for bundling apps, Apple does not have a monopoly and is not subject to the same rules. The fact that Macs come with bundled apps is a plus in the minds of many, and is not a lie. Some of the context is missing, but it is not an outright lie.
xander wrote:In contrast, most Windows desktop machines (the ones that the iMac is competing against) require that you plug power into both the monitor and the tower, plug in the mouse and keyboard, plug in the internet, plug in the microphone and speaker cables from the monitor (most Dells and HPs do this). It is not a lot more cables, but it is enough to be a hassle.
xander wrote:NeoThermic wrote:Then we have 'Viruses'. Macs can get viruses. Macs are as insecure as PC's. Just the userbase isn't significant enough to bother trying anything with.
Macs can get viruses, yes. Can you name more than a handful that have struck in the last 30 years?
xander wrote:As to the userbase argument -- which has the larger userbase: Apache or IIS? which is exploited more?
xander wrote:NeoThermic wrote:'Network'; Yeah, I plug in my camera to XP, and boom! Without needing drivers, XP knows its a "mass storage device", and offers me an option of what to do, as it knows that the media on the camera contains only images, and thus the options are centred around image based options.
This isn't true of all devices. While many devices work right out of the box on Windows machines, there are a good number that don't. I have had trouble with thumbdrives, printers, a couple of cameras, and one of those card readers for a camera. All but the card reader worked on the first try on my PowerBook. Again, the experience of the average, not very tech savvy consumer is that plug-and-play devices often aren't.
xander wrote:While I agree that much of the campaign is based on FUD, I don't see any blatant lies in any of the comercials. If you know what you are doing, then you probably never see the issues mentioned. However, most people don't know what they are doing.
NeoThermic wrote:Yes, but mal/spyware crashing the OS isn't the fault of the OS. I could probibally get some nasty stuff on a Mac and have it crash. The point here is that 2K and XP (infact, anything built on NT kernel) is amazingly stable, and not as restart happy as the adverts like to make out. Anything less than 2K has support dropped by MS anyway, so including those into the stats is like lumping in Mac OS 8 or similar into the crash statistics for Macs.
NeoThermic wrote:Point #2 is a falicy. If I walk out and into PC World and buy a computer, I get XP with SP2. I might have to install three patches on top of this, but nothing near like the suggestion that the advert made. As for #3, I'm sure a PC is just as easy. Plug in the keyboard, mouse, monitor and power cable, and you're done. Hell, they are even colour-coded so you can't get them wrong!
NeoThermic wrote:Whoa, adding in speakers & micraphone there is a bit misleading, but if you wish to go that far, many new cases these days have both those ports on the front facia. On top of that, it's all colour coded, something that you've admited before that Macs do not do.
I've got 30 years? Aww. How about 2006?
OSX/Leap.A (jumps using ichat, not to dissimilar to MSN's viruses of past)
OSX/Inqtana.A (spreads via bluetoth, although was more POC than worm)
OSX/Inqtana.B, OSX/Inqtana.C were wild viruses.
Thats 4 from memory. While I'll admit that PC's are not the saints in terms of infections, if you're being logical and running an anti-virus (which Joe Sixpack gets free with his OEM installed OS!), you'll be safe.
NeoThermic wrote:My, that is intresting. I've plugged in the following items without need of drivers to get working:
- USB keys
- card readers (MMC, SD, CF)
- digital cameras (two nikons and one cannon)
- three printers (all HP)
- PDA (Acer)
- MP3 player (Olympus)
- Joysticks & gamepads
- probibally something else I've forgotton
NeoThermic wrote:Sure, again, anything less than 2K has crap USB support, but as noted above, anything less than 2K is *not* supported by MS anymore and thus should not be counted in this argument (else I'll crack out things based on Mac OS 8).
NeoThermic wrote:The grass, however, isn't as green on the other side, and they will only realise when they get there..
xander wrote:2) The Mac connectors, like the PC connectors, have specific shapes. You couldn't plug the USB into the sound card, even if you tried.
xander wrote:NeoThermic wrote:Yes, but mal/spyware crashing the OS isn't the fault of the OS. I could probibally get some nasty stuff on a Mac and have it crash. The point here is that 2K and XP (infact, anything built on NT kernel) is amazingly stable, and not as restart happy as the adverts like to make out. Anything less than 2K has support dropped by MS anyway, so including those into the stats is like lumping in Mac OS 8 or similar into the crash statistics for Macs.
The add is selling Macs. This includes the OS and the hardware and the bundled apps. If people have the experience of the computer crashing a lot, it doesn't matter what the culprit is.
xander wrote:NeoThermic wrote:Point #2 is a falicy. If I walk out and into PC World and buy a computer, I get XP with SP2. I might have to install three patches on top of this, but nothing near like the suggestion that the advert made. As for #3, I'm sure a PC is just as easy. Plug in the keyboard, mouse, monitor and power cable, and you're done. Hell, they are even colour-coded so you can't get them wrong!
1) The Mac connectors are labeled, even if they are not color coded.
2) The Mac connectors, like the PC connectors, have specific shapes. You couldn't plug the USB into the sound card, even if you tried.
3) A couple of patches is still more than none.
4) Again, it is a slight exageration, but not an outright lie. You claimed that the adds lied.
NeoThermic wrote:The whole advert campaign is based on FUD and Apple's RDF.
xander wrote:I still think that plugging in the power and the keyboard to the back, and the mouse into the keyboard is a hell of a lot easier than plugging in the monitor (power and data), plugging in the tower (power), plugging in both the mouse and the keyboard to the back of the tower, and dealing with the funky cables that many of the consumer models come with. Especially when I am working on a desk, and don't have a great deal of space to move around in.
xander wrote:IAs you say, that's four. No one said that Macs were immune (it is implied, though not outright stated in the commercial), only that they are far more secure. Mentioning 4 viruses against a sea of MS viruses is a bit unconvincing.
xander wrote:OS 8 and 9 were largely crap, and no one uses them anymore. On the other hand, while Win98 is no longer supported, a fair number of people do still use them. Thus it is fair to compare a Mac to a machine running Win98, because people are still using it. Again, look at the server logs.
xander wrote:Hell, my machine at work didn't get updated to XP until this year. The people that are being targeted are those that want cheap computers, and already own cheap computers. A fair number of them are likely to still be running Win98 (or WinMe, or Win2k).
xander wrote:Macs may not be as mind-bogglingly good as Apple claims they are -- they are advertisements, and meant to make Macs look as good as possible.
xander wrote:That doesn't mean that Apples are crap, or that they won't be better liked than the Windows boxes that are (theoretically) being left behind.
xander wrote:To extend your metaphore, while the grass may not be as green as Apple says it is, it is at least as green as on the Windows side, and probably greener.
Aaargh wrote:Macs have a built in camera and speakers and sofort? If one of them breaks, you'll have to miss your Mac for a while. Builtin devices are anyways never as good as external.
Aaargh wrote:Can you give me 100 games that run on Mac? It'll cost you a lot of time, while I just go to a couple of game sites.
Aaargh wrote:The only thing that bothers me are the lockups and crashes. But even then, I prefer Linux above Mac, because Linux is open-source.
I always loved that video.Darksun wrote:Might have been posted
Makes me laugh
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