Tight, or Not So Tight Packs...

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Ace Rimmer
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Tight, or Not So Tight Packs...

Postby Ace Rimmer » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:43 am

I tested it using 4 cities, equalized population, 200m (50m each).

City:

Bombay Tightest Pack (6): 48.1m dead
Chengdu Tight Pack (6): 48.9m dead

Hong Kong 3 nukes hit, then 1, then last two (6): 48.9m dead :P
Tokyo 5 nukes, then several game minutes later, last nuke (6): 48.9m dead :P

So, the tightest pack did the least amount of damage.

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Postby (MOR) » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:58 am

Found it since 2007.. And for that I was using that carriers setup, but it's the versa "good pack kill more pop"



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I'd say thanks for the post and shame for the sharing :P


Edit: I will check for an old version of Defcon and try it again
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Postby Blackbeard » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:10 am

So Mrmot had the right idea all along? :lol:

Ps. I remember seeing MOR playing like that and thinking, "What is he, a shelf stacker in a supermarket?!"
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Postby cza » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:19 am

Was the speed at 1x for both packs until finished? I thought Zoro's Dog confirmed 1x when killing fat cities cleans them better.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:54 am

Hmm, no, will retest it at 1x. (was 20x)

Edit: Just had time to do this once, so not perfect results, but, same four cities, same population, but only used five nukes:

Code: Select all

Speed   Dead

 1x      48.4
 5x      48.3
10x      48.2
20x      47.8


Perhaps speed + tight/lose makes a difference. Each round wasn't exactly the same, but still, interesting.
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Postby Forever Young » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:54 pm

definetly interesting! but i used for my test, Mogwai`s sub nuke packs because these are tightest packs i have seen and i was not able to make those packs myself. i tried a few times without success.
here is the rec where Mogwai is sub launching tight packs to EU. there is also an other rec with better packs which i saw a few weeks ago. there is a city with 2,5 mil pop. if i launch 6 nukes on that city it will go down to 0,1.
but Mogwai clean it to 0,0. well, i don`t know about the speed right now. too lazy to check it again.
tight Mogwai packs! :P
edit: here is a interesting forum thread:
1 nuke will not exactly halves the pop.
Senator wrote:
A nuke will kill exactly half of a cities population, but only at the very center of an explosion. Just the explosion doesn't happen in the center of a city, but when the nuke is as close to a city as it can get. A moving nuke has a certain position in GameTick 1 and another in GameTick 2, its not a continuous movement. And if the next GameTick would actually move the nuke away from the target, it will explode.

To prove my point you could repeat your test at gamespeed 1x and 20x and notice the difference.
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Postby jon » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:43 pm

Oh no, you have opened up a can of worms here. In tight games, everyone will slow down to speed 1 for every nuke impact. :-(
http://15percentfaster.com is my new website.
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Postby Laika » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:07 pm

From bert's Dedcon readme file - about speed settings:

bert_the_turtle wrote:beware, speed factors > 100 [x realtime] will make nukes "miss" their target.


Guess it supports what Senator wrote.
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Postby trickser » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:26 pm

There is hardly any difference between 1x and 10x damage (Rimmers example), and thats for a 50 million city. On a average "big" city of 5 million, its a difference of 0.02**. Also while the error grows with every nuke, its absolute value gets halfed* with every nuke. Using this for a game advantage is just something for nitpicking noobs.

Laika_rus wrote:From bert's Dedcon readme file - about speed settings:

bert_the_turtle wrote:beware, speed factors > 100 [x realtime] will make nukes "miss" their target.


Guess it supports what Senator wrote.


The strange thing is, the nuke not only has to move away from the target, it also has to be inside a certain range, and unneeded condition somehow, but on the other side it shows gamespeed actually has an influence on the game.

*not halfed, need to rethink this, but its importance is becoming smaller the more the number of used nukes goes to "a lot".
** wait, thats wrong also

Edit: Good news for the nitpickers, I just discovered, the speed effect will be more serious if you use uneven numbers of nukes :lol:
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Postby Forever Young » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:50 pm

omg! i tried it again with 2,5 pop city on 1x speed with 6 single nukes.
no pack and i moved on 1xspeed short before hitting the city and at the end 0,0 pop.
so we can say, 1x speed forever during hitting cities! :lol:
edit: nitpicker or not, but i wondered why there are differences. but now i know why i lost so many R3D 1v1 matches. :lol:
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Postby Baton101 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:49 pm

Forever Young wrote:so we can say, 1x speed forever during hitting cities! :lol:


We cant say that since whole game cities are being hit...

We cant play like that, and if you play like that for 1% more kills on a city that means you have no skill...only skill or bor.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:54 pm

Well, in my rough test, the most difference was only 1.2%, and as senator pointed out, that's with 50 million in one city. Therefore, if you double that to 100m and double the percentage (1.2 x2), you get a maximum of 2.4%. Now, that's not 2.4% of 100m, rather it's the maximum difference between how much you kill and how much you could kill. Infinite BOR required for maybe a point difference.
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Postby trickser » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:08 pm

So I read in the source and did some math.
In the worst case nukes will have only 80% effectivity, but there are other effects also. For one worst case is rare and with 200+ Nukes average case is what counts. Second, every 2nd nuke will eat the ineffectivity of it predecessor, when there are more survivors, halfing those gives more death, then when the predecessor would have had full effect.

in summary:

Code: Select all

speed   1x      5x      10x     20x
worst   99%     95%     90%     80%
average 99.5%   97.5%   95%     90%
ave-2n  99.75%  98.75%  97.5%   95%


Hitting with even numbers of nukes, should in average chancel any speed effect, ave-2n just means, you will hit cities with uneven numbers of nukes about half the time.

Edit: arg, more wrong math, 2nd nuke wont totally chancel the ineffectivity of 1st nuke, but I was calculating with the average case as always happening, so its an estimate anyway.

Lets just state, the more nukes you use, the tinier the total effect becomes.
Last edited by trickser on Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Forever Young » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:57 pm

Baton101 wrote:
Forever Young wrote:so we can say, 1x speed forever during hitting cities! :lol:


We cant say that since whole game cities are being hit...

We cant play like that, and if you play like that for 1% more kills on a city that means you have no skill...only skill or bor.

i was joking! that is why there is a " :lol: " at the end. :)
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:00 pm

Seems only 20x makes a slight difference, so in 99% of any games, we'll never really see speed causing wins/losses. I tested the 20x first nuke and 1x second, and saw no difference. Granted, just one time deal.

tl;dr: Speed does change it the tiniest bit ever, but not enough that a single BOR game would benefit. Maybe 100 BOR games, 1 might. :P

Edit: forgot to mention that I used two different territories (allied) and silos. SA and AS

Code: Select all

North to South 6 Nukes, semi-tight

  City A  City B
 1x 24.6 / 24.6
 5x 24.6 / 24.6
10x 24.5 / 24.6
20x 24.5 / 24.4 (worst)

South to North 2 nukes, Large Time Difference

 1x 12.5 - 18.7
 5x 12.3 - 18.6
10x 12.2 - 18.4
20x 12.1 - 18.1  (worst)

South to North 2 nukes, same time

 1x 18.7  (best)
 5x 18.6
10x (skipped)
20x 18.1  (worst)

Two Nukes, Time Sequence, tight

1st/2nd
20x/1x 24.9/37.4 (no better)
10x/1x 24.8/37.4
 5x/1x 24.5/37.2 (worst)
 1x/1x 25.0/37.4

reverse

1x/20x 24.9/36.6
1x/10x 25.0/37.4
 1x/5x 25.0/37.2
 1x/1x 24.9/37.4 (best)

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