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trickser
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Postby trickser » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:14 pm

Well, I actually experienced Sovjet occupation, while you probably just heard a lot of stories about it.
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Postby Deadcows » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:20 pm

trickser wrote:Well, I actually experienced Sovjet occupation, while you probably just heard a lot of stories about it.

Am I right when I say it was already Glasnost era by then? If I am right then your experience of Soviet discrimination cant be anything more serious than my joke of course if it wasnt some kind of Special Incident.
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Postby trickser » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:38 pm

Yea, kinda. Still the town where I grew up was divided by a wall, behind that wall was a soviet garrison of the same size as the town itself. Some streets couldn't be passed because they were military areas. I had to wear uniforms and march a lot. And forced to speak and think along the national/communist ideology. That was no joke.
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Postby Schubdüse » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:02 pm

trickser wrote:I had to wear uniforms and march a lot. And forced to speak and think along the national/communist ideology. That was no joke.

:shock: I thought you were around my age. Naiv as I was, I joined the "Bundeswehr" in 1995. Did you have to serve in the "Volksarmee" or did you mean the FDJ stuff?
Vorsprung durch Kraft - Triebwerke saugen - Präzisionsarbeit... Schubdüse.
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trickser
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Postby trickser » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:20 pm

I thought I am younger then you :P
I was in school and there has been a lot of militarism. I only became a "Thälmann Pionier". Military greetings, daily ideological speeches with us standing in formations, parade marches a couple of times a year. I mean, they have been damn serious about it, and they made me believe in all of it. Even my parents became careful what to say to me.

Thankfully history saved me from becoming an idiot.
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Postby Schubdüse » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:32 pm

trickser wrote:I thought I am younger then you :P

Zip it up! :P

trickser wrote:I was in school and there has been a lot of militarism. I only became a "Thälmann Pionier". Military greetings, daily ideological speeches with us standing in formations, parade marches a couple of times a year. I mean, they have been damn serious about it, and they made me believe in all of it. Even my parents became careful what to say to me.

It's awful that you had to experience all this. In comparison, I just had a "Mickey Mouse" childhood.

trickser wrote:Thankfully history saved me from becoming an idiot.


With all that NSA-stuff in mind, I'm feeling that all the goverments are trying to keep us as idiots...
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Postby Siсiliаn Ноundd » Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:11 pm

Deadcows wrote:If you want to see real racist jokes come to PUB chat.


I am not racist at all but do I have some really funny racist jokes I have heard in my past. L M A O :lol: I laugh at racist jokes because they are really stuiped.
-SH
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Postby Deadcows » Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:19 pm

Sicilian Hound wrote:
Deadcows wrote:If you want to see real racist jokes come to PUB chat.


I am not racist at all but do I have some really funny racist jokes I have heard in my past. L M A O :lol: I laugh at racist jokes because they are really stuiped.

Exactly.
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Postby Zorotama » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:06 am

Anyway I don't understand the connection between comunism and DDR. I'm serious..
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Postby cza » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:04 am

Deadcows wrote:We estonians were slaves for more than twice as long as black people in America and obviously we were dicriminated not only at that time but up to the end of 20th century yet if now someone makes fun of us no one is riding to the rescue of saving us from discrimination. Now think again about what you said Trickster.


Well this is interesting news. Are you equating serfs to slaves, or drawing some poor nationalist analogy? If so, that's bogus.
I'd like to know more about Estonian chattel, with good sources to learn further.

And while there's room to argue over ethnic jokes, nationalist teasing, etc., this form of discrimination does not rise to the level of the institutionalized white supremacy in the United States that lasted long after 1865 (and forms of which still persist). You can tell me the best way to break a Polack's finger is to punch him in the nose, and you might even hurt my feelings, but Polish-Americans as a class are not disproportionately incarcerated, stopped and frisked, stripped of voting rights, or denied access to credit; nor are they opposed by organized hate groups (for the most part; Americans are definitely diverse in their hatred. We contain multitudes). Blacks have been for decades. The Supreme Court didn't strike down bans on interracial marriage until the year my brother was born. Slavery is a critical part of this story and is rightfully recognized, but it's also not the only event fueling antiracism. People don't fight for racial justice as part of some sort of collective guilt for wrongs committed centuries ago.

Also lurking in your defense is the problem of thinking about these issues in terms of contending grievance. Saying, "Hey, my people suffered and no one is helping me! What's everyone bitching about? Discrimination is everywhere!" blurs the different forms oppression takes, naturalizing it as a general human trait. The flip side of this naturalization is to undercut the legitimacy of people trying to redress legacies of racism and structural inequality; it casts their arguments as pleading for special rights, and it lets opponents avoid facing their own privilege. What you should be doing instead is addressing the historically specific forms inequality has taken in Estonia.
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Postby bastek.84 » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:45 am

Zorotama wrote:Anyway I don't understand the connection between comunism and DDR. I'm serious..


It's easy... After WW 2 Soviets controlled one third of Germany (in today borders, not those from before the war). In "Yalta" Soviets and UK\US decided to the division of Germany, witch would not allow them to rebuild. Soviest in "their area" put communist regime by hands of old German Communists who survived the various purges (as the elimination of the pre-war of Germany Communist Party on Stalin order) and the same war. The Soviets really care about DDR, because it was very important to them later in the possible expansion of the west Europe country. So, they took care the communist regime there was a very deeply rooted, they developed their army, secret police, and they have own bases there. In brief East Germany had no choice, they had to accept the communist regime imposed and to be like this "lonely lighthouse" they have to lead by example that this system was superb, but not of their own volition.
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Postby Zorotama » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:30 pm

bastek.84 wrote:
Zorotama wrote:Anyway I don't understand the connection between comunism and DDR. I'm serious..


It's easy... After WW 2 Soviets controlled one third of Germany (in today borders, not those from before the war). In "Yalta" Soviets and UK\US decided to the division of Germany, witch would not allow them to rebuild. Soviest in "their area" put communist regime by hands of old German Communists who survived the various purges (as the elimination of the pre-war of Germany Communist Party on Stalin order) and the same war. The Soviets really care about DDR, because it was very important to them later in the possible expansion of the west Europe country. So, they took care the communist regime there was a very deeply rooted, they developed their army, secret police, and they have own bases there. In brief East Germany had no choice, they had to accept the communist regime imposed and to be like this "lonely lighthouse" they have to lead by example that this system was superb, but not of their own volition.


Hahahha...Bastek I know the history. But I still think that Eastern Europe never known, sadly, the comunism. To call Stalin comunist is like to call Bush christian or Assad muslim.

Obviously any critik become ideology but the marxism is not a truth but a way to read the present. The key to know if a country is comunist or not is that: the women and men are alienated or not? How can you tell me that soviet union was comunist? What brainwashing that bastard did it to identify violence and oppression with comunism? In an essential way the best approximation (I mean the less worst alienated society) was the sweden in early '60 and '70, good conditions for workers, great rights for women, great respect for differences..

The disaster of soviet union is double: firstly for the eastern europe itself and then for the rest of the world, defrauding people (us) about a great and advanced idea. A capitalism by state is not comunism.
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Postby Deadcows » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:58 pm

Im really sorry for all I have ever said on this forum.
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Postby Colytic » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:51 pm

[...]
Last edited by Colytic on Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Noryb » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:31 pm

cza wrote:And while there's room to argue over ethnic jokes, nationalist teasing, etc., this form of discrimination does not rise to the level of the institutionalized white supremacy in the United States that lasted long after 1865 (and forms of which still persist). You can tell me the best way to break a Polack's finger is to punch him in the nose, and you might even hurt my feelings, but Polish-Americans as a class are not disproportionately incarcerated, stopped and frisked, stripped of voting rights, or denied access to credit; nor are they opposed by organized hate groups (for the most part; Americans are definitely diverse in their hatred. We contain multitudes). Blacks have been for decades. The Supreme Court didn't strike down bans on interracial marriage until the year my brother was born. Slavery is a critical part of this story and is rightfully recognized, but it's also not the only event fueling antiracism. People don't fight for racial justice as part of some sort of collective guilt for wrongs committed centuries ago.


Not that I have a dog in this fight (and I wade in with some trepidation), but I don't think that this comment is all that relevant when talking to a European. Black-White race relations have dimensions outside of New World slavery and the US Civil Rights movement. I don't think it's fair to expect an Estonian to operate in that tradition. Having him relate the Black experience to his own nation's history is perfectly understandable. Drawing parallels between the two subjects is a far more interesting and useful endeavour than simply dusting off the well-trodden narrative of racism in the US. Especially for North American readers who might not be particularly aware of the post-1940 history of eastern Europe. Estonians, and other victims of Western realpolitik at Yalta and Potsdam, are justified in feeling a sense of outrage. Mentioning that experience in a discussion about race and institutionalized racism is completely legitimate.

While we're on the subject of stereotypes, isn't it a rather American trait apply an unfair universality to things peculiar to their country? An odd counterpart to -- or perhaps an odd result of -- American exceptionalism, but it's there.

This pillorying of deadcows is rather disappointing. He made one stupid joke and everyone fell over themselves to attack him and demonstrate their political orthodoxy. In that context, invoking the Soviet era seems all the more apt.

[/devil's advocate]

It really was a stupid joke.

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