BANNED on SFCON

General discussion about Defcon

Moderator: Defcon moderators

User avatar
kudayta
Introversion Staff
Introversion Staff
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:25 pm

Postby kudayta » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:40 am

Schubdüse wrote:
The Mighty Santa wrote:
kudayta wrote:
The Mighty Santa wrote:
Forever Young wrote:saw him in the chat 3-4 weeks ago. Unfortunately, I have not noticed him first, and the game was already over and just said hello and goodbye. i think he is in holidays or very busy. but when I heard sfcon site is down I was shocked and thought the game servers may also. i really hope it is all fine with him.
(I pray), however, that given enough time, Senator will return to us ...

i will also pray, to the Defcon and sfcon God. :roll:
Please, Defcon God, bring us back Senator! i will say this 100 times every day. should be enough at first. :lol:


We also must sacrifice a virgin to keep the Defcon God happy enough to bring Senator back...


I say we kill the Defcon God, then symbolically eat its flesh and drink its blood every week.


Lol Coup why must you always be so anti-religion?


You kidddddding me??? Look around you! Examples? Once there was an U.S. president who went on a crusade, because of 9/11.
Many catholic priests are abusing little kids...and they are ALWAYS trying to cover it up.
Recently some "muslim" fanatics went loco because of a crappy youtube video.
Some time before that, an U.S. moron threatened to burn some editons of the Koran. (Yeah, Heil Hiltler! When you start to burn books, humans will follow soon.)
F*cking religion is the doom of mankind. In case I have hurt you religious feelings...I don't mind. Because religion is hurting my scientific feelings all the time.

Err, edit: Sry of being off-topic here.


Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Forever Young
level5
level5
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:48 pm
Location: Black Forest Germany GMT+1

Postby Forever Young » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:11 am

Bibles for Haiti are very useful. they can make fire with it for cooking. :roll:


The holy atheist F.Y. :lol:
edit: sry for abusing this topic!
WeAreDefconBastardsNotTerrorists

Let's dance in style
let's dance for a while
heaven can wait
we're only watching the skies
hoping for the best
but expecting the worst
are you gonna drop the bomb or not?
...
User avatar
Zorotama
level5
level5
Posts: 1507
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:03 am
Location: 64x80

Postby Zorotama » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:21 pm

Schubdüse wrote:You kidddddding me??? Look around you! Examples? Once there was an U.S. president who went on a crusade, because of 9/11.
Many catholic priests are abusing little kids...and they are ALWAYS trying to cover it up.
Recently some "muslim" fanatics went loco because of a crappy youtube video.
Some time before that, an U.S. moron threatened to burn some editons of the Koran. (Yeah, Heil Hiltler! When you start to burn books, humans will follow soon.)
F*cking religion is the doom of mankind. In case I have hurt you religious feelings...I don't mind. Because religion is hurting my scientific feelings all the time.

Err, edit: Sry of being off-topic here.


Hehe, ever nice to read your post. But, dear, let me pick my glasses..

Why we would confuse religious feelings with ideological explanations of shitty actions?

But more.. How could have born scientific feelings without the feeling of the truth and the willing of the pursuit of the truth that primarily made religious feelings?

And more.. Politically: also Marx known and wrote about the value of religious feelings for people, as a first way of rebellion to the oppressive order.


Cause everyone can do shit behind the religious images...but also behind the scientific functions. What you think about Eugenetic? But sure, we know that it isn't science..but why we treat Mullah Omar and George Bush like religious men?

I love u
User avatar
Laika
level5
level5
Posts: 1499
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:16 pm
Location: Moscow

Postby Laika » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:51 pm

Religion is bad because it gives wrong answers. You have to be nice to people not because otherwise you go to hell, but because people will come and kill your dog / burn your house / or you name it, if you have reputation of a scumbag.

In more ancient version religion told that lightning strikes because Zeus wanted so. Also it told that one can pray / devote a sacrifice to Zeus to affect lightning in his or her favour, giving to folk false feeling of control over the world. Now, christianity tells the same thing but with more vague 'god' who has power over 'everything'.
User avatar
Dävid
level2
level2
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:05 am
Location: UK/Germany/Chile
Contact:

RELIGION

Postby Dävid » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:47 pm

93s

Guys dont get confused about ESTABLISHED religion, CERTAIN Religious Institutions, and the Religious/Superstitious natur of man.
Undoubtedly the Catholic Religious Intitution is more a force of EVIL than good, which Stefen Fry recently eloquently touch apon in the IIntelligence2 Debates.
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuIX8OAB ... ure=relmfu
The newest finding in the institution in Australia not withstanding!

The spiritual leaning or superstitious nature of our concience to link causes and interpret order in the chaos of reality is possibly part of our human nature. Very much comming into being as our consciousness does like random cow patches in an electrical storm. Just as pigeons develop compulsive disorders when fed randomly we to pick up superstitious compulsions in a world that is no more or less likely than any of the other posible infinite multiverses. I hate having to explain to GAMBLERS why a coin flipping always on heads from now to the end of time is no more or less likely than any other comination! You really see how its a belief system that holds thier world together and not calculation.

Established religions grew out of sense of community (as opposed to the essoteric religions who grew out a sense of brotherhood and occult teaching), and as such are valid nourishment for our feeling of self value. Free speach against such religions should take heed in hurting or insulting an individuals religion in the same way we avoid racist comment. Religion in part to many peoples sense of identy and culture and is such intrinsic to the basic dignity of man.

Science is in now way an equivelent to religion as it is just a method. Yet again people build an institution behind these things and the Scientific Insitution is capable of the same myopic and inquisitorical attitudes (perhaps without the deathtolls however) as any established religion.

Dogma belongs to the institutions in both religion and science and is the pure lust to abuse power.

Fanaticism and the blind acceptance of dogma is perhaps the worst we have to fear from these all, as can be seen in the creationalists insistance on intelligent design or the hate breeding idiots perverting Islam.

Would we be better without religion? I dont know if mankind can manage without it. The superstitious need seems to be hard wired.

We would be better using our heads.

Do what you want should be the idea.

Love is the Law
Love under Will
Love you All
LLL
User avatar
Ace Rimmer
level5
level5
Posts: 10803
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: The Multiverse

Postby Ace Rimmer » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:00 pm

I would be willing to argue that without religion, suicide rates would skyrocket (at some point), and so would a number of other problems that would adversely affect society. Simple logic + human emotion = "if there's no point, what's the point?" I.e., many people would not be satisfied with simply 'living the best life possible before a meaningless death'.

Obviously, you wouldn't have miliant religous nuts carrying out acts of violence and possibly have less traditional war (?). Regardless of religion, human beings are greedy, power hungry, vain bastards. :wink:
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast...
User avatar
Laika
level5
level5
Posts: 1499
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:16 pm
Location: Moscow

Postby Laika » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:15 pm

Agreed with Ace; but imo this logic is similiar to saying that "cat is tired. it needs to sleep" to a child. (Cat is dead, for the greater clarity).

edit

Kudayta elaborated the point much better in post below. Though I want to add that products of science like antidepressant pills or therapy course is available to rather small percentage of population. Access to religion is more widespread.
Last edited by Laika on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
kudayta
Introversion Staff
Introversion Staff
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:25 pm

Postby kudayta » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:15 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:I would be willing to argue that without religion, suicide rates would skyrocket (at some point), and so would a number of other problems that would adversely affect society. Simple logic + human emotion = "if there's no point, what's the point?" I.e., many people would not be satisfied with simply 'living the best life possible before a meaningless death'.

Obviously, you wouldn't have miliant religous nuts carrying out acts of violence and possibly have less traditional war (?). Regardless of religion, human beings are greedy, power hungry, vain bastards. :wink:


The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. - George Bernard Shaw
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg

I've expounded on this point before. Religious solutions to problems are not optimal. The sciences of psychology and psychiatry have made tremendous strides in the past century, and their solutions to depression and suicidal behavior are cheaper, more effective and grounded in reality.
User avatar
Ace Rimmer
level5
level5
Posts: 10803
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: The Multiverse

Postby Ace Rimmer » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:22 pm

Notice I never used the word 'happy'. With religion, for many people, there is a sense of meaning, which can brign with it long lasting fullfillment. Many of those people would find it hard to adapt to a world without deep meaning. That is, if you could prove that our existance is just a strange accident, then there really is no meaning to life beyond superficial circumstance.

kudayta wrote:Religious solutions to problems are not optimal.

Agreed.

kudayta wrote:The sciences of psychology and psychiatry have made tremendous strides in the past century, and their solutions to depression and suicidal behavior are cheaper, more effective and grounded in reality.

Can you prove this? Is there even enough data to make such claims?
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast...
User avatar
kudayta
Introversion Staff
Introversion Staff
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: RELIGION

Postby kudayta » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:22 pm

Dävid wrote:...The spiritual leaning or superstitious nature of our concience to link causes and interpret order in the chaos of reality is possibly part of our human nature....


Stephen Jay Gould hypothesized that superstitious and/or magical thinking is a natural and necessary byproduct of our anatomy. He referred to this as a "spandrel", referring to the open space where an arch meets a rectangular doorway in churches. These areas are often elaborately decorated, so much so that you might mistake that area as being the basis for the design. But it's not, it's just leftover space that's been filled in.

Even if that's the case (the evidence is not good at present), it would not excuse religious beliefs. It would just explain them in the proper context. There would still be no good reason for believing in such things, and even less reason for basing our public policy upon them.
User avatar
kudayta
Introversion Staff
Introversion Staff
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:25 pm

Postby kudayta » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:35 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:Notice I never used the word 'happy'. With religion, for many people, there is a sense of meaning, which can brign with it long lasting fullfillment. Many of those people would find it hard to adapt to a world without deep meaning. That is, if you could prove that our existance is just a strange accident, then there really is no meaning to life beyond superficial circumstance.

kudayta wrote:Religious solutions to problems are not optimal.

Agreed.

kudayta wrote:The sciences of psychology and psychiatry have made tremendous strides in the past century, and their solutions to depression and suicidal behavior are cheaper, more effective and grounded in reality.

Can you prove this? Is there even enough data to make such claims?


I know that you never used the word "happy", Shaw's quote captures the essence of my rebuttal though, that being: Whether religious beliefs fill some psychological need does not speak to the truth value of those beliefs.

As for your question, I assume you want me to demonstrate that psychotropic drugs are effective at treating depression. While keeping in mind that I'm not a licensed therapist, nor have I formally studied psychopharmacology, psychiatry, neuroscience, etc...yes, I can demonstrate that antidepressants in combination with modern therapy is effective. There is in fact a wealth of information regarding the topic available online, with the consensus opinion being that we're on the right track here. This method is not without it's drawbacks of course. We are aware of the problems and are actively working to find solutions. This stands in contrast to religious methods which advocate long debunked ancient mythology, discredited techniques and on occasion, downright harmful behaviors.
User avatar
LadySnowhitepink
level3
level3
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:28 am

Postby LadySnowhitepink » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:40 pm

it seems i lost the subject here
...
banned on earth?
was it that?

:roll:
User avatar
kudayta
Introversion Staff
Introversion Staff
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:25 pm

Postby kudayta » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:44 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:That is, if you could prove that our existance (sic) is just a strange accident


Sorry for the second post here, but I can't let this statement go unchallenged. We can and have demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that evolution by natural selection is the cause of our existence. This does not mean that our existence is an accident. It's the very opposite of an accident. There's a reason for our existence, one that we understand very well. It's just that we don't need to invoke an intelligence behind that reason. For the same basic reason that we don't need to invoke a miniature artist quickly painting the screens inside our televisions. It's not an accident that televisions work.

Now, before you object that an intelligence designed the first televisions: The origin of life itself is something we don't fully understand (evolution by natural selection explains the origin of diversity of life, not the origin of life). There are several competing hypotheses, but it's possible we may never know the exact path that the first lifeforms took. If you wish to base your belief in the supernatural on missing data, that's fine, but it is just a God of the Gaps argument.
Last edited by kudayta on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
-- Tobias --
level3
level3
Posts: 360
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:39 am

Postby -- Tobias -- » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:05 pm

Laika_rus wrote:You have to be nice to people not because otherwise you go to hell, but because people will come and kill your dog / burn your house / or you name it, if you have reputation of a scumbag.


Hmm, this is a lot like the "eye-for-an-eye" approach (perhaps w/o the strict liability part). Seems fine as far as it goes; but it is a bit too bounded by "rationality" for me. How about these two additional subtle extensional spins:

1) David Hume might suggest that before acting as a scumbag you have an innate moral understanding (a sense of sorts) that you yourself would not desire to be scumbagged upon. If your culture is one of respect for fellow travelers, then you desist from the action not out of fear of future reprisal, but out of empathetic respect for the humanity of others.

2) As a child at school one day I recall an early morning recess where we all ran out to the playground on a bright, sunny day. I, along with a large group of others, randomly chose to run to the merry-go-round: a specific playground apparatus.


Image

Imagine, 15-20 children jammed on this thing. Now, this particular merry-go-round was old, and had become imbalanced over time. It would wobble based on the weight distribution of children upon it. As happens with children, our school yard play progressed to a game; the objective of which was pushing the other children off of the merry-go-round.

As the game went on, I found myself sharing a segment of the merry-go-round with a classmate of mine. As the group turned their attention to him, and began their efforts to push him off, I realized that given the instability of the apparatus, if he was to go, I would soon surely follow. So, I defended him as diligently as I defended myself.

Later that same day, just prior to the afternoon recess, this same fellow said "come with me." I said, "No, I want to play on the merry-go-round again, and I want to go this way" (the shortest route to the apparatus). He said, "Stop, don't go that way" and pointed to the ground in that direction. He saved me from stepping into a big pile of dog crap. Meanwhile, all the other children were freaking out over the mess on their shoes.

Ever since then, I have always wondered about how things might have turned out if I had not realized that he and I were randomly "connected" via the merry-go-round and I had not defended him.

So, what are the chances that the guy you shoot in a road rage incident today wasn't going to spot and report that crack in the bridge tomorrow that causes the bridge to collapse while you are driving over it? Undoubtedly small, but you will never know, will you? Or, to extend it over generations: the man you kill today doesn't have that child, that has a child, that has a child, etc., that became a doctor, that saves your progeny. Or, more positively, how do you know the man you steal from today won't need to invest time to recoup his losses that he might otherwise have invested in creating "free energy" and abundance for all of us? So, personally at least, whether we perceive it or not, we are all randomly connected, and there is something too cool about the human spirit that I would want to limit (via bad acts) any future possibility at all.
Last edited by -- Tobias -- on Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
kudayta
Introversion Staff
Introversion Staff
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:25 pm

Postby kudayta » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:14 pm

That's a rather good essay on morality Toby, and it hints at a few things that I find fascinating.

The Prisoner's Dilemma and that our moral strategies are derived from our biology.

It's not that Laika was too bounded by rationality there, he was too bounded by (probably) apathy to spell it all out on the forums.

Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests