Free Speech

General discussion about Defcon

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TheGranaryBytes
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Postby TheGranaryBytes » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:52 am

kudayta wrote:
Endless wrote:
kudayta wrote:
Endless wrote:Kud you are the worst out of all of us. You let the trolls get to you. When that happens, THEY WIN. I'm on this forum everyday just reading. When i see that BGP posts something, i just skip it because its narcissistic bull shit that i dont need to waste my time with. You fed the troll and it consumed you. Now he has control over you. He saw your weakness and exploited it.


I documented and exposed a cheater and a liar. I don't care if he's a troll. I care that he's a cheater and a liar.


And yet there you are, demanding he be banned. By cheating do you mean he launched on you as an ally? That is not cheating. That is TROLLING. And what do TROLLS do? They LIE.

Jesus is it really that hard?


You obviously aren't well versed on what BGP was doing in the games if you think it was merely launching on an ally.


Your initial grievance was that he launched on you as an ally and that you wanted him to be banned because of it.
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Postby AIRburst95 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:52 am

Endless wrote:
SpitJock wrote:Sorry Endless - I can't agree there.

In most forums, it's traditionally the job of the moderator to deal with the sort of ridiculous behaviour that's plagued the forum for the past few weeks. If anyone's rights were violated, it was our right to have a forum that wasn't plastered in foolish name calling in thread after thread, for week after week. An argument would have been fine, had there been one. Even a bit of banter back and forth can be amusing for a time. What we had instead was page after page of "You're a douche/No, you're a douche" infecting many threads. It was tantamount to vandalism, IMHO, which is exactly what the moderators are here to prevent unless the definition of "moderator" has changed recently.

Sure, all parties involved have the right to free speech. They can go on any number of public forums and call each other what they like, until the forum mods and community in general tire of it and ban them from there too. No-one's stopping them from saying what they like, just making it clear we are no longer interested in hearing it here. It wouldn't have been so bad if they could have limited it to just one thread, so we knew which one to ignore, but it got everywhere.

True, we didn't have to sign anything agreeing to any kind of behaviour to join the forum. On the other hand, the moderators haven't signed anything to the effect of "you can behave like an ass-hat with no consequences" either.

It's not like the ban NEEDS lifting anyway. It's easy for them to sign up for new accounts on the forum, although if they've any sense then they'll perhaps try to tone down the ass-hattery this time.


Anyway that's why I support the ban, but I am sort of expecting Bert or another moderator to tell me it's all for entirely different reasons now.


SJ


Instead of the moderators actually having to do their work and Delete the posts where they blatantly attack each other, they think they solved the problem by just banning them after the were "warned."

Give me a break. Men get on line and let their testosterone out. They could be 5'4" and 125 lbs, but act like they are the strongest man on the planet. It is our nature to banter back and forth. TGR and BGP have a game in common and they mostly argue about the game itself. While they may hate each other on here, they may have a few beers together in reality.

Bert needs to get off of his high-horse. He showed his testosterone levels by just banning everything that relates to this. Hell, i wont be surprised if I'm not the next one. He clearly is just as intolerant of trolls as we are, but he invokes his power to try and clean everything up, but it really doesnt do a damn thing.

Kud you are the worst out of all of us. You let the trolls get to you. When that happens, THEY WIN. I'm on this forum everyday just reading. When i see that BGP posts something, i just skip it because its narcissistic bull shit that i dont need to waste my time with. You fed the troll and it consumed you. Now he has control over you. He saw your weakness and exploited it.

What if i got into a argument with Bert? What if i call him cock munching, cum swallowing shit eating fucktard son of a whore? If i start trolling him, is he going to ban me? Just save your graces now and lift the ban for both of them.


I don't see your point.

Code: Select all

Bert needs to get off of his high-horse.
THEN

Code: Select all

What if i call him cock munching, cum swallowing shit eating fucktard son of a whore? If i start trolling him, is he going to ban me?


I don't see how banning someone is wrong if they are insulting you directly and constantly posting on every thread just to annoy everyone.
As for TGR I think he should have never been banned, but thats not really my decision to make.

As for bert getting of his "high horse". I do think bert handled the situation poorly (waiting a long time to break out the ban hammer and all) however with the complexity of what has been happening for the past month i don't think what bert did can be justified as riding a high horse and banning at will...
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Postby kudayta » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:54 am

TheGranaryBytes wrote:Your initial grievance was that he launched on you as an ally and that you wanted him to be banned because of it.

Initially yes. A negotiation tactic, intending to over-reach and then settle for something less (what I really wanted was an apology, an admission of ignorance of the rules and a promise not to continue his behavior). Instead, he practically dared me to uncover his true behavior. Which I did.
Last edited by kudayta on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Laika » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:54 am

what do TROLLS do? They LIE.


Imagine that you're playing cards with several people. But 2 or more hands are being controlled by one person. And it continues for a long time. Would you like to keep playing ?
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AIRburst95
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Postby AIRburst95 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:54 am

AIRburst95 wrote:
Endless wrote:
SpitJock wrote:Sorry Endless - I can't agree there.

In most forums, it's traditionally the job of the moderator to deal with the sort of ridiculous behaviour that's plagued the forum for the past few weeks. If anyone's rights were violated, it was our right to have a forum that wasn't plastered in foolish name calling in thread after thread, for week after week. An argument would have been fine, had there been one. Even a bit of banter back and forth can be amusing for a time. What we had instead was page after page of "You're a douche/No, you're a douche" infecting many threads. It was tantamount to vandalism, IMHO, which is exactly what the moderators are here to prevent unless the definition of "moderator" has changed recently.

Sure, all parties involved have the right to free speech. They can go on any number of public forums and call each other what they like, until the forum mods and community in general tire of it and ban them from there too. No-one's stopping them from saying what they like, just making it clear we are no longer interested in hearing it here. It wouldn't have been so bad if they could have limited it to just one thread, so we knew which one to ignore, but it got everywhere.

True, we didn't have to sign anything agreeing to any kind of behaviour to join the forum. On the other hand, the moderators haven't signed anything to the effect of "you can behave like an ass-hat with no consequences" either.

It's not like the ban NEEDS lifting anyway. It's easy for them to sign up for new accounts on the forum, although if they've any sense then they'll perhaps try to tone down the ass-hattery this time.


Anyway that's why I support the ban, but I am sort of expecting Bert or another moderator to tell me it's all for entirely different reasons now.


SJ


Instead of the moderators actually having to do their work and Delete the posts where they blatantly attack each other, they think they solved the problem by just banning them after the were "warned."

Give me a break. Men get on line and let their testosterone out. They could be 5'4" and 125 lbs, but act like they are the strongest man on the planet. It is our nature to banter back and forth. TGR and BGP have a game in common and they mostly argue about the game itself. While they may hate each other on here, they may have a few beers together in reality.

Bert needs to get off of his high-horse. He showed his testosterone levels by just banning everything that relates to this. Hell, i wont be surprised if I'm not the next one. He clearly is just as intolerant of trolls as we are, but he invokes his power to try and clean everything up, but it really doesnt do a damn thing.

Kud you are the worst out of all of us. You let the trolls get to you. When that happens, THEY WIN. I'm on this forum everyday just reading. When i see that BGP posts something, i just skip it because its narcissistic bull shit that i dont need to waste my time with. You fed the troll and it consumed you. Now he has control over you. He saw your weakness and exploited it.

What if i got into a argument with Bert? What if i call him cock munching, cum swallowing shit eating fucktard son of a whore? If i start trolling him, is he going to ban me? Just save your graces now and lift the ban for both of them.


I don't see your point.

Code: Select all

Bert needs to get off of his high-horse.
THEN

Code: Select all

What if i call him cock munching, cum swallowing shit eating fucktard son of a whore? If i start trolling him, is he going to ban me?


I don't see how banning someone is wrong if they are insulting you directly and constantly posting on every thread just to annoy everyone.
As for TGR I think he should have never been banned, but thats not really my decision to make.

As for bert getting of his "high horse". I do think bert handled the situation poorly (waiting a long time to break out the ban hammer and all) however with the complexity of what has been happening for the past month i don't think what bert did can be justified as riding a high horse and banning at will...


actually never mind that, i'm happy. Thank you bert for getting rid of the problem. for now at least.
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Postby SpitJock » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:03 am

Endless wrote:What if i got into a argument with Bert? What if i call him cock munching, cum swallowing shit eating fucktard son of a whore? If i start trolling him, is he going to ban me?


I don't imagine he would. But if you called him a "cock munching, cum swallowing shit eating fucktard son of a whore" in every single thread he posted in, every single time he posted, and then started posting detail from his personal life like his full name, place of work, etc. - I'd want him to ban you, and I imagine others would too.

Testosterone is for the gym, the field and the bedroom. In forums it's just a bit lame. It wasn't testosterone prompted someone to push the "ban" button - it was boredom, irritation, and that horrible feeling of being embarrassed on someone else's behalf.

SJ
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Postby bert_the_turtle » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:04 am

The original ban was done by Chris. The re-ban yesterday was done by me under orders by Chris, who, as has been pointed out, owns this place and therefore decides who can speak here. He gave them ample warning, too. They are free to get a blog or something. More tomorrow when it's not 2AM and I don't wish my daughter was less awake and playful (she had a very extended afternoon nap).
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Postby thedarkknightrises » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:05 am

kudayta wrote:
TheGranaryBytes wrote:Your initial grievance was that he launched on you as an ally and that you wanted him to be banned because of it.

Initially yes. A negotiation tactic, intending to over-reach and then settle for something less (what I really wanted was an apology, an admission of ignorance of the rules and a promise not to continue his behavior). Instead, he practically dared me to uncover his true behavior. Which I did.


BGP/OpenFlow was no SpitJock, you should have known he was never going to offer a public apology or admission of ignorance. However it does seem to me that in addition to practically daring you to uncover his true behavior (which you did) he seemed to have enjoyed it and wanted you to do so... since on multiple occasions he flaunted it in right front of your face and posted links of his cheating for you to investigate. It almost seems like akin to a compulsive gambler BGP couldn't control his cheating behavior and towards the end didn't even want to hide it anymore. But you succeeded in getting him banned on the servers and on the forums so I guess you should be happy your negotiation tactic worked.
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Postby kudayta » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:10 am

thedarkknightrises wrote:
kudayta wrote:
TheGranaryBytes wrote:Your initial grievance was that he launched on you as an ally and that you wanted him to be banned because of it.

Initially yes. A negotiation tactic, intending to over-reach and then settle for something less (what I really wanted was an apology, an admission of ignorance of the rules and a promise not to continue his behavior). Instead, he practically dared me to uncover his true behavior. Which I did.


BGP/OpenFlow was no SpitJock, you should have known he was never going to offer a public apology or admission of ignorance. However it does seem to me that in addition to practically daring you to uncover his true behavior (which you did) he seemed to have enjoyed it and wanted you to do so... since on multiple occasions he flaunted it in right front of your face and posted links of his cheating for you to investigate. It almost seems like akin to a compulsive gambler BGP couldn't control his cheating behavior and towards the end didn't even want to hide it anymore. But you succeeded in getting him banned on the servers and on the forums so I guess you should be happy your negotiation tactic worked.


Basically, yes. I got nearly everything I've explicitly asked for, and the one thing I wanted that I didn't get, I'll probably leave on the table. True power is knowing when to do that.

That said, during my initial request, I had no previous interaction with BGP. I don't see how I should have known he was that unreasonable.
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Postby thedarkknightrises » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:27 am

kudayta wrote:
thedarkknightrises wrote:
kudayta wrote:
TheGranaryBytes wrote:Your initial grievance was that he launched on you as an ally and that you wanted him to be banned because of it.

Initially yes. A negotiation tactic, intending to over-reach and then settle for something less (what I really wanted was an apology, an admission of ignorance of the rules and a promise not to continue his behavior). Instead, he practically dared me to uncover his true behavior. Which I did.


BGP/OpenFlow was no SpitJock, you should have known he was never going to offer a public apology or admission of ignorance. However it does seem to me that in addition to practically daring you to uncover his true behavior (which you did) he seemed to have enjoyed it and wanted you to do so... since on multiple occasions he flaunted it in right front of your face and posted links of his cheating for you to investigate. It almost seems like akin to a compulsive gambler BGP couldn't control his cheating behavior and towards the end didn't even want to hide it anymore. But you succeeded in getting him banned on the servers and on the forums so I guess you should be happy your negotiation tactic worked.


Basically, yes. I got nearly everything I've explicitly asked for, and the one thing I wanted that I didn't get, I'll probably leave on the table. True power is knowing when to do that.

That said, during my initial request, I had no previous interaction with BGP. I don't see how I should have known he was that unreasonable.


Well you couldn't have been expected to know, at least not initially. Towards the end he started to post links to his own cheating. While part of me believes he actually enjoyed flaunting you, another part of me thinks there was a psychological aspect to his preempting you of his cheating. BGP couldn't hold back on the cheating, (that much was obvious) and he knew you were after him and observing all his games, (so he wasn't going to get away with it, not as long as the games were being recorded anyway) so he did the only thing he could do... which was to preemptively post evidence of his own cheating before you could find out and expose him... he probably did this under the guise of "having fun at cheating" when in reality you may have gotten to him and it was his way of lessening the impact of your exposure by exposing it himself first. In any case, like you said, with exception to the apology, you've pretty much gotten everything you originally asked for at this point.
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Re: Free Speech

Postby wikileakz » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:05 am

Endless wrote:Since when do people's rights as human beings get to be governed by the so called, "Moderators." Banning players for speaking their mind in an Open Forum, and even titled "General."

Bert clearly just got annoyed with TGR and BGP's bantering back and forth, and clearly just submitted to Kudyata's gripe and moans. They were not violating any laws of any kind and were having arguments. Isnt that what Forums are for?

If you are going to govern things like this, when they create their accounts, make them sign an E-sign stating the rules and that they may be banned for them. They have not signed anything, nor agreed to anything of the sort.

Do the right thing and lift their ban.


The illusion of freedom of speech only exists at the federal level. Say what Chris doesn't like and you get banned immediately. The only solution to that is to set up one's own forum. Effectively turning society into a bunch of intolerantly tolerant one-man-islands all silo-ed to his own narrow world... each person a platform onto himself. And what would be the point of that? It is still censorship. The government is simply privatizing censorship under the banner of corporatism. Now companies, ISPs, blog and forum owners get to censor us, in fact they are compelled to do so by structural policies set up by the governments, censorship privatized and monetized, sold to the lowest bidder whore out there, and the government is getting companies to do their dirty work for them... for there is no stronger form of censorship than voluntary and proactive self-censorship... the chilling effects of this and the implications are indeed stifling.. You see the irony when they make these so-called "free speech" zones... but there are none more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free. Wake up people. You are free to say what you want, and long as it is in the interest of the machine and as long as it is what they want you to say.
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Postby thedarkknightrises » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:27 am

Laika_rus wrote:
what do TROLLS do? They LIE.


Imagine that you're playing cards with several people. But 2 or more hands are being controlled by one person. And it continues for a long time. Would you like to keep playing ?


In BGP's case, sometimes 3 or more hands were being controlled by one person, and he got to see everyone's cards. Cheating erodes the value of a game and Defcon community is seriously lacking players anyway... and all this does is push more new players away.
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Postby Nukraine » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:31 am

posting on the forums is a privilage, not a right
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Postby AIRburst95 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:33 am

Nukraine wrote:posting on the forums is a privilage, not a right


agreed, now who wants cake?

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Postby cza » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:03 am

First they came for BGP and TGR, and I didn't speak out, because their three letters were different from mine.

Then they came for the noobs—oh, I already said that.




Anyway, I'm ready for some cake.

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