Free Speech

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Free Speech

Postby Endless » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:08 pm

Since when do people's rights as human beings get to be governed by the so called, "Moderators." Banning players for speaking their mind in an Open Forum, and even titled "General."

Bert clearly just got annoyed with TGR and BGP's bantering back and forth, and clearly just submitted to Kudyata's gripe and moans. They were not violating any laws of any kind and were having arguments. Isnt that what Forums are for?

If you are going to govern things like this, when they create their accounts, make them sign an E-sign stating the rules and that they may be banned for them. They have not signed anything, nor agreed to anything of the sort.

Do the right thing and lift their ban.
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Postby kudayta » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:02 am

It's not BGP or TGR's server though. It belongs to Introversion, they can allow whoever they want to post here. It'd be like if you came to my apartment and started mouthing off, if you didn't leave when I asked then I'd be within my rights to have you removed. That's not a violation of free speech. Furthermore, Chris publicly warned them both not to bicker again or he'd ban them.

I didn't request TGR be banned.
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Postby TheGranaryBytes » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:13 am

kudayta wrote:It's not BGP or TGR's server though. It belongs to Introversion, they can allow whoever they want to post here. It'd be like if you came to my apartment and started mouthing off, if you didn't leave when I asked then I'd be within my rights to have you removed. That's not a violation of free speech. Furthermore, Chris publicly warned them both not to bicker again or he'd ban them.

I didn't request TGR be banned.


Seems to me that TGR was provoked by an obvious Openflow post.
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Postby kudayta » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:16 am

Well, I'll say that I fully support the decision to ban BGP. I don't agree with TGR's ban, but he was warned.
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Postby TheGranaryBytes » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:26 am

kudayta wrote:Well, I'll say that I fully support the decision to ban BGP. I don't agree with TGR's ban, but he was warned.


While true, everyone makes mistakes. I find it hard to believe that a user like BGP be allowed to troll non stop over a period of months,
yet a long standing member, whom has played since the beginning is banned because they were provoked into an exchange of words with
another member.

This is the Defcon forum though after all.
Last edited by TheGranaryBytes on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free Speech

Postby thedarkknightrises » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:26 am

Endless wrote:Since when do people's rights as human beings get to be governed by the so called, "Moderators." Banning players for speaking their mind in an Open Forum, and even titled "General."

Bert clearly just got annoyed with TGR and BGP's bantering back and forth, and clearly just submitted to Kudyata's gripe and moans. They were not violating any laws of any kind and were having arguments. Isnt that what Forums are for?

If you are going to govern things like this, when they create their accounts, make them sign an E-sign stating the rules and that they may be banned for them. They have not signed anything, nor agreed to anything of the sort.

Do the right thing and lift their ban.



kudayta wrote:Well, I'll say that I fully support the decision to ban BGP. I don't agree with TGR's ban, but he was warned.



I will not comment on whether or not I believe BGP/OpenFlow should have been banned, but I also voice my opinion that TGR did not violate the "Introversion - Registration Agreement Terms" therefore he should not have been banned.


Code: Select all

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While this is of course not legally binding, if the Introversion admin and staff want to arbitrarily "ban" members without cause, this should be delineated in the terms and agreements so as to maintain a "consistent inconsistency". As it stands, it seems Introversion admin at the highest levels simply choose to circumvent their own TOS with a "verbal warning" and then prompt ban. This is not right. If they want to ban "trolling" behavior, then define that behavior and include that in the Terms of Agreement along with the already existing laundry list of items like: abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented , etc etc etc. If the highest powers at IV don't themselves follow the rules, how can they reasonably expect and demand everyone else to do the same? Sure they can do what they want. But they can also make it right. This is one person's whimsical decision and not a reflection of long standing policy. Chris can lift the ban anytime he so chooses to do so. It is only a matter of will he... and that is entirely up to him, no "terms of agreement" withstanding. Either update your TOS to allow admins to have this kind of chaotic wiggle-room or lift your ban on TGR or alternatively maintain your current course and lose the trust, respect and patronage of your paying customers and shrinking community base.
Last edited by thedarkknightrises on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:53 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Postby SpitJock » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:27 am

Sorry Endless - I can't agree there.

In most forums, it's traditionally the job of the moderator to deal with the sort of ridiculous behaviour that's plagued the forum for the past few weeks. If anyone's rights were violated, it was our right to have a forum that wasn't plastered in foolish name calling in thread after thread, for week after week. An argument would have been fine, had there been one. Even a bit of banter back and forth can be amusing for a time. What we had instead was page after page of "You're a douche/No, you're a douche" infecting many threads. It was tantamount to vandalism, IMHO, which is exactly what the moderators are here to prevent unless the definition of "moderator" has changed recently.

Sure, all parties involved have the right to free speech. They can go on any number of public forums and call each other what they like, until the forum mods and community in general tire of it and ban them from there too. No-one's stopping them from saying what they like, just making it clear we are no longer interested in hearing it here. It wouldn't have been so bad if they could have limited it to just one thread, so we knew which one to ignore, but it got everywhere.

True, we didn't have to sign anything agreeing to any kind of behaviour to join the forum. On the other hand, the moderators haven't signed anything to the effect of "you can behave like an ass-hat with no consequences" either.

It's not like the ban NEEDS lifting anyway. It's easy for them to sign up for new accounts on the forum, although if they've any sense then they'll perhaps try to tone down the ass-hattery this time.


Anyway that's why I support the ban, but I am sort of expecting Bert or another moderator to tell me it's all for entirely different reasons now.


SJ
I understand your point of view perfectly. If I didn't, I couldn't be certain that you're wrong.
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Postby Laika » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:31 am

Since when there is democracy here ? Forum admins have full control over your accounts/posts/stuff.

Do the right thing


Nope. Admins decide what is right thing. The only way to change things I see is to become an admin (or to pretend being one) or leave.

I support bans.

edit

I think there was "spirit of the law" violation.

Indeed SpitJock, in fact we were essentially told by a forum administrator that this was our problem and that we needed to deal with it.


This. Moderation should be less tolerant to spamming with new threads and posting personal info of other people.
Last edited by Laika on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:44 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby kudayta » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:37 am

Indeed SpitJock, in fact we were essentially told by a forum administrator that this was our problem and that we needed to deal with it. Paying customers were told to take a hike. The Introversion staff really should reconsider their stance here.
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Postby Endless » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:42 am

SpitJock wrote:Sorry Endless - I can't agree there.

In most forums, it's traditionally the job of the moderator to deal with the sort of ridiculous behaviour that's plagued the forum for the past few weeks. If anyone's rights were violated, it was our right to have a forum that wasn't plastered in foolish name calling in thread after thread, for week after week. An argument would have been fine, had there been one. Even a bit of banter back and forth can be amusing for a time. What we had instead was page after page of "You're a douche/No, you're a douche" infecting many threads. It was tantamount to vandalism, IMHO, which is exactly what the moderators are here to prevent unless the definition of "moderator" has changed recently.

Sure, all parties involved have the right to free speech. They can go on any number of public forums and call each other what they like, until the forum mods and community in general tire of it and ban them from there too. No-one's stopping them from saying what they like, just making it clear we are no longer interested in hearing it here. It wouldn't have been so bad if they could have limited it to just one thread, so we knew which one to ignore, but it got everywhere.

True, we didn't have to sign anything agreeing to any kind of behaviour to join the forum. On the other hand, the moderators haven't signed anything to the effect of "you can behave like an ass-hat with no consequences" either.

It's not like the ban NEEDS lifting anyway. It's easy for them to sign up for new accounts on the forum, although if they've any sense then they'll perhaps try to tone down the ass-hattery this time.


Anyway that's why I support the ban, but I am sort of expecting Bert or another moderator to tell me it's all for entirely different reasons now.


SJ


Instead of the moderators actually having to do their work and Delete the posts where they blatantly attack each other, they think they solved the problem by just banning them after the were "warned."

Give me a break. Men get on line and let their testosterone out. They could be 5'4" and 125 lbs, but act like they are the strongest man on the planet. It is our nature to banter back and forth. TGR and BGP have a game in common and they mostly argue about the game itself. While they may hate each other on here, they may have a few beers together in reality.

Bert needs to get off of his high-horse. He showed his testosterone levels by just banning everything that relates to this. Hell, i wont be surprised if I'm not the next one. He clearly is just as intolerant of trolls as we are, but he invokes his power to try and clean everything up, but it really doesnt do a damn thing.

Kud you are the worst out of all of us. You let the trolls get to you. When that happens, THEY WIN. I'm on this forum everyday just reading. When i see that BGP posts something, i just skip it because its narcissistic bull shit that i dont need to waste my time with. You fed the troll and it consumed you. Now he has control over you. He saw your weakness and exploited it.

What if i got into a argument with Bert? What if i call him cock munching, cum swallowing shit eating fucktard son of a whore? If i start trolling him, is he going to ban me? Just save your graces now and lift the ban for both of them.
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Postby kudayta » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:45 am

Endless wrote:Kud you are the worst out of all of us. You let the trolls get to you. When that happens, THEY WIN. I'm on this forum everyday just reading. When i see that BGP posts something, i just skip it because its narcissistic bull shit that i dont need to waste my time with. You fed the troll and it consumed you. Now he has control over you. He saw your weakness and exploited it.


I documented and exposed a cheater and a liar. I don't care if he's a troll. I care that he's a cheater and a liar.
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Postby thedarkknightrises » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:48 am

Endless wrote:
SpitJock wrote:Sorry Endless - I can't agree there.

In most forums, it's traditionally the job of the moderator to deal with the sort of ridiculous behaviour that's plagued the forum for the past few weeks. If anyone's rights were violated, it was our right to have a forum that wasn't plastered in foolish name calling in thread after thread, for week after week. An argument would have been fine, had there been one. Even a bit of banter back and forth can be amusing for a time. What we had instead was page after page of "You're a douche/No, you're a douche" infecting many threads. It was tantamount to vandalism, IMHO, which is exactly what the moderators are here to prevent unless the definition of "moderator" has changed recently.

Sure, all parties involved have the right to free speech. They can go on any number of public forums and call each other what they like, until the forum mods and community in general tire of it and ban them from there too. No-one's stopping them from saying what they like, just making it clear we are no longer interested in hearing it here. It wouldn't have been so bad if they could have limited it to just one thread, so we knew which one to ignore, but it got everywhere.

True, we didn't have to sign anything agreeing to any kind of behaviour to join the forum. On the other hand, the moderators haven't signed anything to the effect of "you can behave like an ass-hat with no consequences" either.

It's not like the ban NEEDS lifting anyway. It's easy for them to sign up for new accounts on the forum, although if they've any sense then they'll perhaps try to tone down the ass-hattery this time.


Anyway that's why I support the ban, but I am sort of expecting Bert or another moderator to tell me it's all for entirely different reasons now.


SJ


Instead of the moderators actually having to do their work and Delete the posts where they blatantly attack each other, they think they solved the problem by just banning them after the were "warned."

Give me a break. Men get on line and let their testosterone out. They could be 5'4" and 125 lbs, but act like they are the strongest man on the planet. It is our nature to banter back and forth. TGR and BGP have a game in common and they mostly argue about the game itself. While they may hate each other on here, they may have a few beers together in reality.

Bert needs to get off of his high-horse. He showed his testosterone levels by just banning everything that relates to this. Hell, i wont be surprised if I'm not the next one. He clearly is just as intolerant of trolls as we are, but he invokes his power to try and clean everything up, but it really doesnt do a damn thing.

Kud you are the worst out of all of us. You let the trolls get to you. When that happens, THEY WIN. I'm on this forum everyday just reading. When i see that BGP posts something, i just skip it because its narcissistic bull shit that i dont need to waste my time with. You fed the troll and it consumed you. Now he has control over you. He saw your weakness and exploited it.

What if i got into a argument with Bert? What if i call him cock munching, cum swallowing shit eating fucktard son of a whore? If i start trolling him, is he going to ban me? Just save your graces now and lift the ban for both of them.


Powerful truth. Deep stuff here. This is the type of post that "Free Speech" was meant to protect. If Introversion censors, bans, redacts or otherwise deletes or removes this post then they have once and for all shown their true colors.
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Postby Endless » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:48 am

kudayta wrote:
Endless wrote:Kud you are the worst out of all of us. You let the trolls get to you. When that happens, THEY WIN. I'm on this forum everyday just reading. When i see that BGP posts something, i just skip it because its narcissistic bull shit that i dont need to waste my time with. You fed the troll and it consumed you. Now he has control over you. He saw your weakness and exploited it.


I documented and exposed a cheater and a liar. I don't care if he's a troll. I care that he's a cheater and a liar.


And yet there you are, demanding he be banned. By cheating do you mean he launched on you as an ally? That is not cheating. That is TROLLING. And what do TROLLS do? They LIE.

Jesus is it really that hard?
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Postby Laika » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:48 am

You let the trolls get to you. When that happens, THEY WIN.


Since when banning trolls means that they win ?

Give me a break. Men get on line and let their testosterone out. They could be 5'4" and 125 lbs, but act like they are the strongest man on the planet. It is our nature to banter back and forth. TGR and BGP have a game in common and they mostly argue about the game itself. While they may hate each other on here, they may have a few beers together in reality.


Why not doing it in fucking PM ? I don't want my "unread posts" to be spammed with this crap.
Last edited by Laika on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby kudayta » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:50 am

Endless wrote:
kudayta wrote:
Endless wrote:Kud you are the worst out of all of us. You let the trolls get to you. When that happens, THEY WIN. I'm on this forum everyday just reading. When i see that BGP posts something, i just skip it because its narcissistic bull shit that i dont need to waste my time with. You fed the troll and it consumed you. Now he has control over you. He saw your weakness and exploited it.


I documented and exposed a cheater and a liar. I don't care if he's a troll. I care that he's a cheater and a liar.


And yet there you are, demanding he be banned. By cheating do you mean he launched on you as an ally? That is not cheating. That is TROLLING. And what do TROLLS do? They LIE.

Jesus is it really that hard?


You obviously aren't well versed on what BGP was doing in the games if you think it was merely launching on an ally.

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