Where are the Competitors ?

[-- Tobias --]

Given the indisputable "Rimbaud Phenomenon" (where inexperienced players dramatically (critically) imbalance multi-player games when the remaining players are at least "average") [See http://forums.introversion.co.uk/defcon/viewtopic.php?t=7632], I am now writing to report on another very troubling phenomenon I see far too frequently; namely, the tendency of two experienced players to team up against two known-to-be less experienced players, seeking an easy win rather than any meaningful competition.

This phenomenon was epitomized in a game where I intentionally withdrew to avoid wasting time due to the Rimbaud Phenomenon. In my place, a known-to-be NewPlayer qued up. "Excellent!" I thought to myself, a balanced game for people to enjoy (even it it was at the expense of my play). BUT, to my astonishment, instead of a pro/noob on each team, the two experienced players chose to ally against the two known-to-be noobs! WTF is that!?!

Perhaps some people are enthralled with simply the mechanics of game play, and the competition is of no matter. For myself, however, there is no challenge in such games and I am saddened by seeing this far too often.

[Schubdüse]

In principle, you are right. It's lame to team up against newbies.

BUT: After virtually hundreds of games with a newbie/noob at my side I really enjoy the games allied to a pro.
In those games I don't need to tell my ally why grouped silos are good and why mixed fleet are bad. I don't get a new grey hair, because my team mate is placing all in radar range. And I don't have to listen to nonsense like SRBMs are shot down easier then ICBMs. I can't remember how many games I have played, in which my newbie-ally disconnected and I ended up in a 2vs1.

I know, I know, we have to cherish our newbies in order to gain new permanent players. But it seems like that nowadays 95% of them are just ***holes (on the battlefield).

So forgive me when I enjoy some games with a pro at my side from time to time.

(I think it's time for another tourney )

[Baton101]

Sometimes man just wanna play relaxed game, and its better for newbs to play against pro since that way he will learn alot....i really dont have time and nerves after a good smoke to explain someone like mrmot have, how to do this do that....

after all, if you are no match for other players, and if you are totally newb, then you should spectate and learn tactics.

[toiminto]

I have to say, I agree to almost every point in your post


Recently I've been using a lot of aliases, not to hide my skill against new players but against "pro" players. 4/5 times the pro players in game ally against me :p its fun and i'm not really with a "in it to win it" mentality, more competing against myself than any other

[trickser]

Think the Pros teaming up is just a defense vs the Rimbaud Phenomenon. It will make the situation worse in general as the potential to frustrate the Noobs is bigger and wont help the Pros to get challenging games. But it will help the Pros to not get totally demotivated as they at least can enjoy their skills and teamplay.

From a slightly different viewpoint the problem seems to be the 2v2 gamemode. 2v2 brings a lot of strategical depth and communication beyond the occasional rimmer talk to Defcon. Its great and popular at the same time. On the other side: existence of todays Super-Pros can only be understood with 2v2. It taught them Defcon so well, because there is so much to learn in 2v2 compared with the conventional gamemodes. Complexity of 2v2 and Super-Pros are like a wall to every Noob. Super-Pros get no challenging games and Noobs no motivation. A circle of perfection.

While 1v1 is slightly more Noob friendly its still far from perfect to learn Defcon.

But the real gamemode for every Defcon starter is 6-player-default, the big city race. Its easy to understand what makes you win a game, players can be creative from the start (6-ships-fleets are not a nogo, silos can be placed in radar range, you can backstab and form alliances with great effect to whole game), sometimes you get success by luck, which will give you an immediate motivation boost, and it wont kill the game if a player, may it be yourself, quits.

But unfortunately its totally unpopular, so Noobs cant play it.

Cant we do something to make 6-player-default the king of all game modes again?

[Tesla]

Hmm what about making cities equalized ends the race for the big cities in 1 stroke and would maybe help freshen up the default franchise At a guess the big city race is probably why people don't play it as much, because if 1 player manages to do this well the rest of the game is redundant.

[Ace Rimmer]

The only way to bring back real enjoyment to six-player default is to have a different map. It would need to be circular with all territories (slices of the pie) equal with equal cities. Or, perhaps something like this:

Code: Select all

         O
      O     O
      O     O
         O


Each 'O' = land with cities in same configuration/equalized population and a 'ring' of water for navies all the way around each circle so you are no closer or further away than anybody else and have the same number of neighbors as everybody else.

If that map existed and enough people played it, six-player would still be a race, but a less boring one because you'd all be on the same level.

[tllotpfkamvpe]

.

[Mrmot]

Well, lately i always have some noob by my side and reasons are 2:
- 2 pro bitches ally just to kick my ass and then they both run after my noob
- nobody wants to ally [DEMO] so i feel sorry for those guys. I ally them and make a lot of whiteboard.

Usualy, if they do what i suggest we win and i feeeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllll goooooooooooooooooood that case. But, mainly i search to teach them as much as possible how defcon works. And it pays. After few games like this those guys make progress.
And always suggest them to watch Ace's youtube videos about this game.

But most of all, i like to rename as R3D or synthetic (my prefered whores here around) and lose game against 2 total noobs.

[rus|Mike]

"Excellent!" I thought to myself, a balanced game for people to enjoy

(Pro & noob) vs (Pro & noob) is nowhere near balanced. There are all kinds of noobs. Some just place 6-ship fleets, some on top of that don't use chat at all (ignoring all your plans) or disconnect in the middle of the game, or all of a sudden decide not to follow the plan or some other shit. Out of all (Pro & noob) vs (Pro & noob) I've seen or played, not a single one was balanced.

It's of no surprise that people would rather win due to their high skill than lose due to ally's low skill.

[Groeteschele]

There are other reasons for this phenomenon:

1) Good players are usualy not teenagers with plenty of freetime, they want quality game which lasts not long. Team-up with other good player will save your nerves and time with teaching noob and you will enjoy the game more than tough long game against opponent with same skill level.

2) Good players are more specific players category than wide group of averages and noobs. They can be friends outside the very game itself, so they tend to team-up together. I have heard that the bests of them have even met face to face.

3) This whole phenomenon has a deeper positive effect in itself. Just look on any player's journey from the noob to pro. What is the core you need to became really good is a will to achieve it. Your tactical and strategic skills are secondary occasions which you can study and learn. Rimbaud effect is effectively sieving players, distinguishing those with and without will to be good players. Only players with pro potential can sustain the marathon of defeats.

[Admiral Yoshi]

So far, I have thought of a solution for this problem and it ranged from making sure all players in DEFCON reveal their true identification to where Bert the Turtle must resurrect the old ranking system. And I found that it doesn't work!

So this to me is the best idea for now:

You know when a player enters a...for example a Diplomacy game (which hasn't started yet) and when they enter and the bot tells the arriving player stuff like "This is a Diplomacy...(blah, blah, blah)...Defection won't happen till DEFCON 1..." and other informations? When a player enters a game room (whether devoid of players or full of players), whoever is actually the creators of those game rooms like the SFCON games and the LFO games should have the bots tell the new players to go to this site if they want to be better DEFCON players:

http://forums.introversion.co.uk/defcon/viewforum.php?f=6


So that:

1) Noobs can learn and the experienced (like Groeteschele and LSWP) can have a more...difficult challenge against them. It'll be beneficial to the experienced and the inexperienced, more for the inexperienced because the noobs will now look for better tactics and strategies to defeat them and win. It's also more beneficial to the experienced because they have better challenges to win or to lose at.

2) It will be more beneficial to the DEFCON community because if the new players (noobs) get really good, they want to stick around and challenge the others. So in this case, it can increase the popularity of the game.

3) If the noobs ignore this message and blunder with thier own 6-fleet formations and silos that are spread out, it'll be on their head when they lose or ragequit and the experienced be forced to assume that they're just stupid and arrogant!

[-- Tobias --]

(Pro & noob) vs (Pro & noob) is nowhere near balanced.

Perhaps not optimally, but it is certainly more so on a relative basis, and the outcome of the game would not be predetermined.

It's of no surprise that people would rather win due to their high skill than lose due to ally's low skill.

This is exactly my point. To me, at least, this phenomenon (intentional pro/pro vs known noob/noob) is a surprise. Why even bother playing such a game with a predetermined outcome? Is not risking a loss for the sake of a challenge far more fun than just going through the motions where the outcome is never in doubt? Perhaps the game may come down to which side has the weaker noob, but it might also be resolved from among a host of other factors a well. The experienced player can influence all of these, and the game becomes, once again, a challenge. Frankly, some "wins" are just not satisfying.

[tllotpfkamvpe]

.

[cza]

Also, I almost choked when I read this as "explain to someone like mrmot how to do this and do that"

He said:
"i really dont have time and nerves after a good smoke to explain someone like mrmot have, how to do this do that...."

Which I read as: "Unlike Mrmot, who does do such things, I don't have the time and nerves to explain to someone how to do this…"


I don't mind playing with Newbies, and I try to teach people some stuff, but Noobs are another kettle of fish. Since I came back, I feel like there are lot more jerks on here. Even if game play shows promise, I don't like allying with anyone who talks in terms of "x being gay" or drops a racist comment. And while I am back, I don't have all that much time to play, so if I can find old pals like Edward around, I want to take advantage or the chance to get a game. I'm also looking to finlly ally with some nemesis, like Mrmot, who I don't think I've ever allied with (maybe once?). It would be much better if Shai and Senator were lurking around to play against us, but that's not the way the schedule has been working.