Season Two 2v2: Thread Closed

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Ace Rimmer
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:35 pm

Gulidar wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:But the point isn't to limit the players, which the above does. The point is to get games played.


The point is to make games more challenging.

Ok, let me rephrase to make my point more clear. The intent of the 2v2 ladder is to (in the order of importance)
  1. Get more games played
  2. Build a more cohesive "core" group of players (pooled from the forum)
Now, in order to accomplish number 2, you have to first accomplish number 1. In order to accomplish number 1 you must make it easy to get games played. Putting unnecessary restrictions on people does not make it easy to get games played. Besides, just increasing the number of games you play automatically increases the challenge. If we have 50 or 100 active players, more rules and regulations might work and even be needed. However, we only have (realistically) a few regularly active players. Another reason we must make the ladder as open and flexible as possible. Lastly, the more you make people have to think, the less they'll act. :wink:

Player A: Hmm, I've got players b, x, y, and z here. Now who's in my range and which team... to hell with it, I'll go play diplomacy/eat dinner/feed my cats.

Gulidar wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:Besides, if you only ever play games with players in your range, you will never ever get any better.


Not really. Player win => player gets more points => player plays with better players => player gets better.

This might work in an ideal world, but this is reality. Also, why not reduce the equation?

Gulidars Way:Player win => player gets more points => player plays with better players => player gets better
Rimmers Way: Player plays with better players => player gets better

Or better yet, make the equation work for you instead of you working for it...

Gulidars Way:Player win => player gets more points => player plays with better players => player gets better
Rimmers Way: Player plays with better players => player gets better => player win => player gets more points

:P

Gulidar wrote:And of course this scoring mode will be used only in 2vs2 ladder, so
Ace Rimmer wrote:playing in the same "range" will create a loop effect seen in regular 1v1 ladders. That is, the same people will always be playing the same people
is wrong.

If you honestly think this type of scoring mode wouldn't end up forcing the same players to play against each other, you are wrong.

Besides, who's gonna keep track of which range you're in? I'm not. :wink:

Edit: One little side note, you have a total of four out of seventy-three games (5.5%). How can you rank such players accurately? You can't, you need somebody to be at least partially active to get good numbers to use. :p
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Postby Gulidar » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:49 pm

Rimmers Way: Player plays with better players => player gets better


In ideal world, yes. In reality, there is a ladder, where players must(in order of importance):

1. Get points by winning
2. Not lose points by losing
3. Get better

But without any restrictions, it just ends like this:

Best players from team play with anyone else from other team and there is no restrictions to it.

I guess you feel great when most of games by team a are games with mike + ace, but we, mortal people who want to play but dont want an autoloss, dont really feel good.


Besides, who's gonna keep track of which range you're in?


Why dont make a simple - really simple - table, which will automatically designate the score based on player ranks which are being updated quite freaquently?

Also, player could just add his score to his name in game, like Gulidar[1001] - so no problem in long thinking who is what score and no going to have dinner instead of playing... unless someone cant really count so he wont be able to understand who can be opposed by him.

In short, and having understood nobody cares:

Rimmer's way: everything goes as it goes
Gulidar's way: Mike + Ace cant play, for instance, me + Irradiate and HAVE to find worthy opponents, vicky cant play almost all players(hooray!), average players play each other and feel happy.

Edit: Very easily. The base score is, for example, 1000. Player wins one game against average players - gets, for example, 50 pts, and loses against far better, loses - for example, 25 points - he's 1025. So he's a bit better then someone who didnt play at all, which is true. So he can play a bit better players now. Quite accurate.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:55 pm

Hehe, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. :wink:

Just one thing I'd like to mention about the whole "Ace+Mike" factor. (must come up with a name for that...). I have played in 30% of the games (24 out of 73 official games) and I only play multiple games one day a week. That's for the entire season with maybe a couple of exceptions. So, to say that nobody else can play each other because of me and Mike is crazy. There are six other days in every week that everybody else can use to play. :wink:
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Postby trickser » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:43 pm

i am still working on a ranking system. But i have to make sure its easy understandable and also makes sence, so its not trival for me. But i think i will have a good system till sunday evening.
Instead of permiting or not permitting players to play each other, it could also serve as a modificator to Ladder points. Equal player= like now. Otherwise Better players when win: little gain; when lose big gain for others.
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Postby Gulidar » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:55 pm

Instead of permiting or not permitting players to play each other, it could also serve as a modificator to Ladder points. Equal player= like now. Otherwise Better players when win: little gain; when lose big gain for others.


Seconded. How could i miss this point in my posts? :(
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Postby Mrmot » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:36 pm

Personally i do not care who will be my opponent (ace/rus for example). Just play my game best i know and try to make points for team. Of course that's good opportunity to improve my level playing against strong player.
On other hand at beggining of this season i was arguing with MOR because i always had to make place for other ppl in ladder game. Now, when i know how things are going here and around i have to give reason to him because he acted in interest of team and later i accepted suggestions to leave place to better players when it was needed without problems.

I hope to make part of same team even next season and if that means that i have to bear "dictator" MOR let it be.

Just no more captain bonus please.

:D
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:39 pm

I believe there will be no Captain's Bonus for Season 2. We'll see though.
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Postby I am Legion » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:50 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:Hehe, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. :wink:

Just one thing I'd like to mention about the whole "Ace+Mike" factor. (must come up with a name for that...). I have played in 30% of the games (24 out of 73 official games) and I only play multiple games one day a week. That's for the entire season with maybe a couple of exceptions. So, to say that nobody else can play each other because of me and Mike is crazy. There are six other days in every week that everybody else can use to play. :wink:



Exactly. I have played others on team A that were not Mike and Ace. While Mike and Ace are the most fun to play, I agree with the others it can get a little frustrating constantly banging your head up against players that you have little hope of beating. With all the stats we have now couldnt we come up with a handicap system for the newer players. All this being said the best way for weaker or newer players to get better is to play against people like Mike and Ace and partner up with someone that can help you out. And remember to change your style of play when it isnt working for you. Team C has been doing this from the beginning and it has worked well for us.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:16 pm

I am not sure why any of you think you can't defeat me and rus|Mike, all you have to do is come prepared and work together. Two players with great teamwork can beat any other two players that don't work together properly. Although, we've gotten much better at playing as a team... :P

Communication is key. As for preparation, the very last game (B vs C) could have had a completely different outcome had Mrmot been familiar with this thread (even mentioned in game with no follow through). :(

In other news, handy dandy little chart. Blocks with like colors are duplicates of each other (nature of the layout). So, you can read your name on the left and go across, or read your name on the top and go down. The three blocks color matched to the labels (also have the blacked out squares) are single team specific (A with A, B with B, etc) get outside of the matching colors and it's A vs B, A vs C, etc.

For example; if you're Team A and want to know how many times you've played with others in Team A, stay in the yellow square. Move to the pink or light green squares and you're now seeing how many times you played against somebody.

Image
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Postby Pwnbroker » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:57 am

Ace Rimmer wrote: to hell with it, I'll go feed my cats.




Mor?
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Postby tllotpfkamvpe » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:23 am

Ace Rimmer wrote:Just one thing I'd like to mention about the whole "Ace+Mike" factor. (must come up with a name for that...)

The hustlers, The self fulfiling prophecy of team's doom...
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Postby iRadiated » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:00 pm

Mrmot wrote:Personally i do not care who will be my opponent (ace/rus for example). Just play my game best i know and try to make points for team. Of course that's good opportunity to improve my level playing against strong player.
On other hand at beggining of this season i was arguing with MOR because i always had to make place for other ppl in ladder game. Now, when i know how things are going here and around i have to give reason to him because he acted in interest of team and later i accepted suggestions to leave place to better players when it was needed without problems.

I hope to make part of same team even next season and if that means that i have to bear "dictator" MOR let it be.

Just no more captain bonus please.

:D


agreed.

It's simulanously fun and frustrating being beaten by any combination of Ace/Mike and the other Team A players but I wouldn't have it any other way.
I could never improve my game playing people that are not as good as me.

On the plus side, with that argument in theory it means that WE can only get better whilst THEY remain pretty well static in terms of ability.
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Re: Season Two 2v2 Teams

Postby (MOR) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:40 pm

Why? wrote:(MOR) (+1 GMT)


Maybe to late but I'm GMT full year..

Thanks Why? anyway
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Postby 47 » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:07 am

so when do we sign up for the teams and stuff???
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:10 am

Probably a week before the season ends. If we start too soon people will sign up and forget. If you start too late we won't get enough players. A week before the end seems like the best time to get ready for the next Season.
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